[paulhubbard]

and men eating 2lbs/day

I couldn't eat that much if I tried! If I did, I'd weigh a ton.

[Jim_H]

Then, they're out hunting around the lake, two guys shoot the same animal and the next thing you know a conflict ensues. How long would that last?

Two options would be (1) retreat to less-populated areas or (2) start shooting other hunters. Fortunately, due to my hunting experience in the area east of Lake Mary / Mormon Lake, I could probably get farther back into more-remote areas where I've found perennial water, thereby avoiding the crowds.

There are over 60,000 people in Flagstaff, a lot more in the surrounding area including the Verde Valley, southern Coconino County, and then people who are further away but hunt here and would know the exact same areas you would. It's a nice fantasy, but don't be naive and believe you've really got a secret spot, or that the wealth of the land is limitless in an area with low productivity, unpredictable precipitation, and easy access by vehicle, horse, or foot. How long is that meat really going to last? No refrigeration, so you have to preserve it. Has anyone here actually done that? Not seen it done on TV or the internet, or know of someone who claims to have, but actually done it. What is the actual elk population of the area, then subtract out what you can't kill in a given year to allow for reproduction and natural attrition. What are you really down to? What would the yearly caloric intake of a group of people be and how many elk are there to support that group? Consider that even if you are the most responsible, skilled and moral hunter who could actually live off the land in a hunting ad gathering way, the massive influx of people who would see it as an everyman for himself shoot-athon would take out a large number of elk, deer, and other edible meso-mammals. Over the long term, tanks silt up and water scarcity is a problem for animals who's population would decline. Also, if things are really this bad, predators might increase in many areas.

What we really should be doing is talking to the Hopi, and getting and growing some of their traditional corn and staples that do well locally and do not need the high levels of external fertilization or other inputs to thrive and produce.

[Rob del Desierto]

You can get Hopi corn and other desert adapted crops at Native Seed/SEARCH in Tucson (or online). They even grow here in Page if you water them (and I can - we have seeps, springs, and the river/lake to take water from).

[maxpower]

Two years ago in New England we had a nasty ice storm that pretty much shut down about 30% of the state for a while. Some people didn't have electricity for 12 days. We had to move out of our house....we had lost power for a total of 5 days, had no fireplace, and no water since we were on a well. I had to drive about 100 miles to get out of the ice zone and found a motel to hole up in until the power was restored. Thankfully, the temperature didn't drop severely after the storm so I didn't have to worry about pipes freezing, etc. It was a pretty monumental disaster!

[chumley]

Just to make sure I understand this thread, you do all mean living without a connection to the interwebs, right? I don't think I could do it.

[kevinweitzel75]

I think about this at least once a day. When I was younger, growing up in Colorado, we had a small farm. Some horses, some cattle, chickens, pigs, all the usuall stuff. We also had a corn feild on one side and a potatoe feild on the other. Winters were tough, considering we lived on the plains. But I remember alot about that and miss that way of life. Arizona is alot different than Colorado in almost every different way. I'm not too sure how long I could make it living in the desert. Now maybe if I lived up at Reavis and had the entire place to myself or a small community. I think if something drastic does happen, we will be seeing alot of those small communities all over instead of the larger cities.

[azbackpackr]

Reavis? Or Reevis: http://www.reevismountain.org/

My son enjoys learning primitive or "earth" skills, such as making bows, arrows, knapping arrowheads, making spears, atlatls and spear points, and also weaving baskets to catch fish and crawdads, and making snares. Also he is interested in learning all the plants in the Southwest that have some usefulness.

Here is another resource:
http://www.backtracks.net/Wintercount.html

[VVebb]

There are over 60,000 people in Flagstaff, a lot more in the surrounding area including the Verde Valley, southern Coconino County, and then people who are further away but hunt here and would know the exact same areas you would.

Your point is well taken, and suggests that there may be some significant value to my option #2, i.e. shooting other hunters. Throw in some cannibalism, and you've got a multiplied benefit -- more food and less competition for it. (Adds a whole new meaning to the phrase "human resources," no?)

I have trouble taking the notion of post-apocalyptic planning seriously, so I also have trouble thinking really hard about it. If things were kind of bad, I think plans like mine would work in the short-to-mid term. If things were REALLY bad, i.e. so bad that plans like mine would start to fail, then murder and cannibalism become realistic and perhaps even necessary. There are currently 6.6 million people in Arizona. If the you-know-what hit the fan, and all 6.6 million had to live on the land for an extended period of time, I think "thinning the herd" would be one of the most efficient ways to get through it.

Also, it seems noteworthy that there are two very different topics being discussed in this thread: (1) having the skills and supplies to survive a not-unheard-of scenario, such as a snowstorm that cuts off power to your region for weeks, and (2) having the skills and supplies to survive an apocalypse-like scenario where civilization as we know it comes to an end. I think that #1 is something that EVERYBODY should think about, and #2 is so theoretical/philosophical/unlikely that a lot of people would rather be unprepared for such a scenario than spend their time worrying about it.

[azpride]

Throw in some cannibalism, and you've got a multiplied benefit -- more food and less competition for it. (Adds a whole new meaning to the phrase "human resources," no?)

...If things were REALLY bad, i.e. so bad that plans like mine would start to fail, then murder and cannibalism become realistic and perhaps even necessary. There are currently 6.6 million people in Arizona. If the you-know-what hit the fan, and all 6.6 million had to live on the land for an extended period of time, I think "thinning the herd" would be one of the most efficient ways to get through it.

Has anyone seen the movie "The Road"? It's a realistic and depressing movie about the situation Brian describes above ^^^

[VVebb]

Throw in some cannibalism, and you've got a multiplied benefit -- more food and less competition for it. (Adds a whole new meaning to the phrase "human resources," no?)

...If things were REALLY bad, i.e. so bad that plans like mine would start to fail, then murder and cannibalism become realistic and perhaps even necessary. There are currently 6.6 million people in Arizona. If the you-know-what hit the fan, and all 6.6 million had to live on the land for an extended period of time, I think "thinning the herd" would be one of the most efficient ways to get through it.

Has anyone seen the movie "The Road"? It's a realistic and depressing movie about the situation Brian describes above ^^^

I haven't seen it. But has anyone seen the movie "Zombieland"? It's a realistic and funny movie about the situation that I described above.

[BobP]

@VVebb
The first rule of Zombieland: Cardio. When the zombie outbreak first hit, the first to go, for obvious reasons... were the fatties. (I forget who said this). Maybe I should add it to the cardio thread

[VVebb]

and men eating 2lbs/day

I couldn't eat that much if I tried! If I did, I'd weigh a ton.

Have you eaten elk meat? It's darn tasty, and you might surprise yourself. I insisted on making a 1-lb elk burger for a friend (weight of the patty before BBQ'ing), and he didn't think he was up to the task, but he killed it and then proceeded to eat a baked potato as though it was a giant French fry. It was very empowering, apparently.

[Rob del Desierto]

I tend to think of a Katrina-like incident where law and order disappears and food/supplies from the outside are cut off. The more rural you are, the second part of the scenario becomes more and more likely. During the big Christmas Week blizzards here in Arizona, trucks from St. George and Flagstaff weren't able to get up here for a couple of days. Restaurants started running low on things, but the supermarkets were still doing fine with their much larger stock on hand. Take that out to a week or two (not impossible) and you are going to need to be more prepared - some gas, some canned goods. Each town has its own risks. The idea of running out of power here in Page for more than a day is laughable. In Flagstaff, not so laughable.
Cannibalism=bad idea. Check out Kuru and prion-based diseases for reasons why...

[Jim_H]

I'd only eat the finest cuts of human, no organs or anything but meat.

[maxpower]

I'd only eat the finest cuts of human, no organs or anything but meat.

Since over 50% of the American population is considered to be fat or obese, you might have to do a lot of picking to find the meat. Kind of like eating spare ribs....a lot of work for meager results!

[Jim_H]

I vow to stick with the USDA definition of meat, ground in this case, it will, "consist of chopped fresh and/or frozen meat with or without seasoning and without the addition of fat as such, shall not contain more than 30 percent fat, and shall not contain added water, phosphates, binders, or extenders". It will be a stretch, and Taco Bell is out.

[joe bartels]

azbackpackr comment from recent "How do you say it?" thread: "I admit I am a bit obsessive about grammar and spelling."

azbackpackr comment from this thread: "They all park there snowmobiles..."

-----> ----->

This was funny, like seeing the teacher go down in flames...
On the same token I want to be clear. I truly appreciate Elizabeth's honest help over the past couple years
Everyone please keep sending in spelling/grammar corrections on the core site pages. Fear not as I'm too dumb to be offended

As for living off the grid... I think if forced into it, the majority wouldn't make it

[coanbru]

I'm too dumb to be offended

Insert bitting my lip ICON here

[big_load]

Insert bitting my lip ICON here

I'm roweling on the floor, laughing my chaps off.

[Jim_H]

Hey when it gets really bad lets eat grandma!














grammar intentionally bad