[azbackpackr]

July 16, 2010....So, I am dredging up my old thread here. Ok, so I haven't been up to Baldy for several years. I thought it might be fun to join an ABC backpacking trip there, get to know some of those folks. So, off I go today, to meet up with them at a car camp, and then to backpack the peak tomorrow and Sunday. Needless to say, most people who hike Baldy don't overnight it. I think it will be fun. Plus, we get to haul ALL OUR GEAR up East/Phelps trail to summit, and back down West/Sheeps trail to camp somewhere in upper meadows. Hehehehehe! I hope these folks are in good shape! I know I am, so I am not worried about me! Since I have that GC permit, I can use all of this kind of exercise I can get over the next several months!

And, darn right I am going to summit, at least the White Woman's summit! I notice on several triplogs here and on another website that most people are going to the big cairn. I suppose I will leave my pack at the junction, just to be on the safe side. I have heard no confiscation stories for many years, though.

[azbackpackr]

Darn right we went to the white man's summit, and there were a lot of other people up there, too.

[azbackpackr]

I haven't been to Baldy yet this year, been too busy. So, if you are going on that internet group's campout on Aug 10 at Winn, read this thread! I may or may not be there, depending upon my schedule.

Yes, please do go to the summit--the first one with the huge rock cairn as tall as a person. Do not go to the further summit, though.

[The Hippy]

so i emailed the apache tribe about 2 months ago and they said absolutely not. passing that last boundary is bad news...i couldn't do it, that is their sacred land...to each their own though

[chumley]

Reading through most of the posts on this thread again, I have a couple of observations.

#1. The tribal border is inconsistent on different maps. The MyTopo and CalTopo show it on the east side of the "white man's peak" while the other maps show it on the west side. That certainly causes confusion.

#2. The East Baldy trail passes through tribal land for a FULL MILE east of Mt. Thomas and there has apparently never been a tribal complaint or prohibition about that.

#3. If they say it's prohibited to go to the "white man's peak" then it should be respected. It shouldn't matter if nobody will see you, you leave your pack down below, there's a huge cairn, peak registers, other hikers doing it, or even if dozens of Apaches witness you and don't say anything. The tribal members on the other peak are regular WMAT citizens, not law enforcement officers. (I see people do prohibited things all the time. They can't assume that it's ok just because I, Joe Citizen, don't confront them about it.) Having tribal citizens on the real peak see you on the other peak and not say anything to you should not be construed as permission to do explicitly what you have been asked not to do. That's false reasoning.

As long as the peak is in fact on their land (and it sure would be nice if we could get a consistent map), then I think it is our responsibility to honor the rules and regulations that their government has established.

[The Hippy]

in my mind if the actual peak is on their land and i know it is i asked, i'll have to find the email and post it...
then it is one of the few things they have left..."the white man" stole so much from them back in the days, leave them what they have to call their own. but thats just my thoughts on it...

and yes Chumley, a consistent map WOULD be much appreciated but seeing as it's our govt and their govt handing out the maps...i don't think it'll ever happen

[azbackpackr]

It wasn't their land, originally. They were nomadic and wandered mostly at lower elevations, but were relocated up at Whiteriver to get them out of the way. All that's ancient history, so nowadays of course it IS their land, but as Chumley said, the legal boundaries seem iffy as to the various high points. All I'm saying is there are several high points up there, and I am pretty sure you can go to one of them and see a nice view without bothering anyone.

[Rob del Desierto]

#3. If they say it's prohibited to go to the "white man's peak" then it should be respected. It shouldn't matter if nobody will see you, you leave your pack down below, there's a huge cairn, peak registers, other hikers doing it, or even if dozens of Apaches witness you and don't say anything. The tribal members on the other peak are regular WMAT citizens, not law enforcement officers. (I see people do prohibited things all the time. They can't assume that it's ok just because I, Joe Citizen, don't confront them about it.) Having tribal citizens on the real peak see you on the other peak and not say anything to you should not be construed as permission to do explicitly what you have been asked not to do. That's false reasoning

Well said.

[The Hippy]

It wasn't their land, originally.

i won't say what i want to say but

"The summit of Mount Baldy is within the Fort Apache Indian Reservation and is off-limits to hikers without permission. An unnamed sub-peak with an elevation of 11,400 ft (3,474 m) exists approximately 0.5 miles (0.8 kilometers) to the north of the summit that is off reservation and accessible to the public via maintained trail."

there we go! unnamed sub-peak only 20 feet lower than the summit that is off-limits to non natives...it's not so bad! I respect their wishes because they were here first and "the white man" forced them to be so "tight" about who goes where and does what on their "given" land. okay i am going to get politcal i better stop!

[Patrick L]

I've read from a couple sources that one of the points along the ridge is higher than the actual peak to the south, but I'm sure that's up for debate as well.

[azbackpackr]

Geez Louise. This is what I have been saying all along. We have been calling it "the white man's peak" for years.

About 11 or 12 years ago the tribe put up a big sign saying you couldn't go to that "white man's peak" but then, after realizing it was not on their land, they actually removed that sign the following year.

Incidentally, one time I was up there and saw tribal members over on their peak (which is common to see unless you go up as early as I usually do) who were doing some sort of dance, complete with costumes. But when I have told other hikers about this they didn't believe me.

Obviously, no one believes me about much of anything anyway, which is why I have almost quit posting on this website. I am sick and tired of it. I'm leaving Arizona as soon as possible, with no regrets.