[k9hiker]

Is there enough snow around Payson to make it worth the drive? I'm looking for a spot to play in, not sled. If anyone has a suggestion of an actual spot in the forest that will be accessible by a mini-van I would greatly appreicate the advice.

thanks
jamie

[chumley]

The popular snowplay area north of Payson near Strawberry called Cinch Hook (google it) is closed due to lack of Forest Service funding and generally being abused by the people who visited for the few weeks it was open this year. Wing Mountain north of Flagstaff is the only other "developed" snowplay area in Arizona, but currently has excellent conditions.

[joe bartels]

Looks like the FS idea of managing a forest is to close it.

Cinch Hook gravel pit, located on State Highway 87 and Highway 260 junction, is closed to
entry for all visitors, including snowplay, for the entire winter season of 2009-2010.
Despite the Forest Service’s current management efforts, problems with trash, sanitation,
vandalism, and safe use of the area have prompted the closure for public health and safety.
Highways 87 and 260 are posted for no parking in the vicinity of Cinch Hook pit. Illegal
parking along these state highways creates bottlenecks and very dangerous traffic conditions for
everyone in the area.
Visitors wanting to play in the snow are asked to contact the Flagstaff Visitor’s Center at
928-774-9541 or 1-800-842-7293 to get information about other snowplay areas. Keep in mind
that snowplay areas fill up very quickly—usually by 10 a.m.—so plan your trip accordingly.
For questions about the Cinch Hook area please call the Mogollon Rim Ranger District at
928-477-2255.

[azbackpackr]

...is the only other "developed" snowplay area in Arizona, but currently has excellent conditions.

Just for the record:
Williams Valley Cross Country ski area in Alpine has a tobaggan/sled run, desigated as such with a sign, and is full of snow right now. The sledding hill on 260, between Sunrise junction and Greer junction, a stone's throw east of the boundary of White Mtn. Apache Res., has a huge parking lot and restrooms, with both a kiddie hill and a longer, steeper hill. It is also a take-off point for snowmobiling the railroad grade trail and other areas. I don't know how much snow it has right now.

Incidentally, I hear via Vicente of the Springerville RD that Hannagan is THE spot for xc skiing right now--loads of snow, he told me yesterday.

[joe bartels]

http://hikearizona.com/location_g.php?L ... =16&M=6&G=

[Dschur]

My husband when past Cinchhook sled area on Sat and they had two forest trucks and a DPS officer there at the gate. Don't know if they had just got there or were there to make sure no one was using the area.... Last snow season after they "closed" it there were lots of people still trying to use it and a DPS writting tickets...

[chumley]

Can they legally close the area ... or just close the area to parking? If I snowshoe in from a few miles away, I would think that I can sled wherever I want?

[azbackpackr]

Good point. Call 'em and ask?

[Dschur]

COCONINO NATIONAL FOREST
MOGOLLON RIM RANGER DISTRICT
Pursuant to 16 U.S.C. 551, 36 CFR § 261.50(a), and 36 CFR § 261.50(b), the following acts are
prohibited on all National Forest System lands within the Coconino National Forest, Mogollon
Rim Ranger District in Coconino County. The restricted area is depicted in the attached map,
herby incorporated into this Order as Exhibit A* within the Coconino National Forest.
PROHIBITIONS:
1. Going into or being upon the restricted area; 36 CFR § 261.52(e).
AREA DESCRIPTION:
The area known as Cinch Hook Pit located near the junction of Highway 87 and 260 is
closed. The area can be further described as being on the south side of Highway 87, south
of the junction Highway 87 and 260. See attached Exhibit A.
EXEMPTIONS:
Pursuant to 36 CFR § 261.50(e), the following persons are exempt from this closure
order:
1. Persons with a Forest Service permit specifically authorizing the prohibited act or
omission
2. Any Federal, State or Local Officer or member of an organized firefighting force in
the performance of an official duty.
This order is necessary to protect the public health and safety.
This order becomes effective at 6:00 AM, December 5, 2009, and will remain in force
until March 31, 2010 or until rescinded.
Done at Flagstaff, Arizona, this 4th day of December, 2009.
Joseph P.Stringer
JOSEPH P. STRINGER
Forest Supervisor
Coconino National Forest
Violations of these regulations is punishable as a Class B misdemeanor, by a fine of not more than $5000 for an individual or $10,000 for an
organization, or imprisonment for not more than six (6) months or both; 16 USC § 551, and 18 USC §§ 3559 and 3571.

[Dschur]

Sounds pretty serious to me....

[Rob del Desierto]

If you read the ARPA penalties, they sound pretty harsh too, until you factor in the "up to" part. Mostly it is a handslap fine ($25-$100) and no jail time.

[chumley]

This order is necessary to protect the public health and safety.

I'm no lawyer, but I think it could be argued that public health and safety are NOT at risk. After all, this isn't like tinder-box-dry fire conditions or something similar.

I understand that if there is not adequate parking then there is a safety issue on Highways 87 and 260.

But because the FS can't find a vendor or self-fund plowing, waste removal, and patrol of the area makes it a hazard to health and safety requiring complete closure? How about a permit system that limits use, or limited hours of access? Its not as if there's snow there all winter anyway.

And for the record, I have never played in the snow there, nor do I particularly care to. However, it is public land and I think its unreasonable to use a closure order for these reasons.

What's next? Water Wheel, Fossil Springs?

[toddak]

Hard to believe the FS can't scrape together a few bucks to run the snowplow into the parking lot and rent a couple of port-a-potties for a few weeks during the winter. This is a real shame, Cinch Hook is an excellent tubing hill in a great location, at least an hour closer to Phoenix than the next option. I'd be happy to buy a use pass or pay a fee to get access, just closing it down completely is not a solution. I would think that businesses in Camp Verde and Payson would get together to try and make it happen with a private contractor to increase tourism, gas and food sales, etc. Sad.

[azbackpackr]

I think you should get the district ranger and forest supe on the phone, or better yet, try to go see one of them in their office. If this is presented in a reasonable manner, at least they will probably talk to you. Ask them to bring it up in their next policy meeting. In my local forest, I know I can call up the supe or DR any day and they will talk to me. (Heck, the last DR and I even planned a mtn. bike ride, but then he got transferred to Clifton!)

[Dschur]

I would think that businesses in Camp Verde and Payson would get together to try and make it happen with a private contractor to increase tourism, gas and food sales, etc. Sad.

The only thing with Payson doing this is that they just took over the Tonto Natural Bridge hiring the ranger there and are taxed with handling the operation of that. And there is at least 2 or more incidents a weekend with emergency crews that have to go in for people getting hurt. They are also waiting to be sued... They have been begging for a sponser but no one has stepped up....

[toddak]

Last week I stopped in at the Blue Ridge ranger station to discuss the Cinch Hook closure. There's a variety of reasons, none of them related to budgets/funding. Problems including limited parking that can't be expanded, no interest from private operators due to the limited parking issue, dangerous conditions with parking and traffic along Hwy 260, spotty cell phone coverage in the area and potentially slow response time if there's an emergency, serious injury potential due to the relatively steep/long hill + confirmed high rates of actual injuries in past years, and the usual "idiot factor" (such as the morons who shot holes in the portapotties last year).

The FS does not see any way these issues will be resolved, meaning long term closure for this area. Happy Jack Lodge a few miles to the north has a couple of small tubing hills for a cost of $20/car/day - good for the kiddies but nothing nearly as fun, steep or long as Cinch Hook. So it would appear that once again, the lawyers and The Man have succeeded in ruining the fun.