[Dragon188]

I was wondering if anyone can recomend a few good books dealing with snakes, snake bites, and treatment and prevention of snake bites. I read ck1's article already and want to learn more. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions. Thank you.

[matt gilbert]

Last week I went to REI's first aid clinic. The person teaching the class was a wilderness responder and EMT. She said that for most snake bites out here (pit vipers) the best thing to do is calm down the bite victim and then get them moving towards a hospital. Apparently the cut and suck method has been completely discounted. Full grown rattlers only envenomate 40% of the time, but theres no way to tell until you start to feel the ill effects. The effects can take up to 10 hours to show up in a normal, healthy individual. That usually gives you plenty of time to walk back to the trailhead. If youre further out than that walk as far as you can and hope whoever you're with is willing to carry you the rest of the way.

The best way to avoid being bitten is to be cautious. The snakes don't want to bite you, thats why they rattle. Don't move too quickly in the trail and make plenty of noise. Never put your hands or feet anywhere that you can't see. The majority of snakebites in arizona are non-fatal (incidentally most of the cases treated in a year for snakebites were under the influence of alcohal and were bitten on the hand, imagine that...). If you do get bit, don't bother trying to find, identify or kill the snake. From what I'm told, all the antivenom is the same, as long as you can tell if it was a rattler or a coral (which should be easy). Taking time to find the snake is just wasting time that you could be using to seek medical attention.

Sorry I don't know of any good books on the subject.

[Abe]

Dragon188, Matt petty much said it all; however, I would add when hiking it is a good idea to wear loose fitting trousers and high top boots. Did I just say that? One of many rules I break in snake country.

For piece of mind, I also hike with a walking stick. Not only does it assit me from stumbling, falling, tripping and otherwise hurting myself when hiking; and though NOT PROVEN, I have on numerous occasions while walking and with my quiet thoughts, been startled by the peircing sound of rattlers and I swing my stick toward the noise. Basically, I want something between me and the snake, should it be stricking I hope to knock it out of the way, or I hope to distract it as I look for it, and then back off nice and easy. One thing I will say, after all these years, when I hear those rattlers, it still scares the "you know what" out of me and my heart just stops!

As far as books, I would suggest a basic book. A Sierra Club Naturalist's Guide, The Deserts of the Southwest, by Peggy Larson. It is a great overall book. An example, I used it to make sure what I seen one time was a Arizona Coral Snake when up at Horse Thief Basin area of the Bradshaws. Beautiful snake!

[Daryl]

The only thing I would add is to remove your shoe laces from your shoe and cut off your pant leg (assuming you got bit in the foot/lower leg). Also remove any toe rings or ancklets it you wear that type of thing. There is a good chance you will swell up pretty good and it's easier to remove that stuff before it happens. If you get bit in an arm, try to keep the arm below your heart to slow the spread of the poison. Also, under no circumstances should you ice the wound.

99 times out of 100 when people try the cut and suck method they do more harm then good. Some have even bled to death. Not a good thing to try for the first time when you are not near a hospital.

Here's a thing I put together for our web site:
http://www.sonoransar.org/snakes.htm

[Nighthiker]

The Venomous Reptiles of Arizona by Lowe, Schwalbe & Johnnson. Rattlesnakes by Klauber is an excellent book on rattlesnakes. Want tongs check out http://www.tongs.com

[Dragon188]

Thanks for the info every one. I should have said that I am doing a research paper on snake bites, that is why I need the books. I have another question though. I have seen a lot of different stats on the percentage of dry bites. One book says 25% of all bites are dry, another says 50%, and others say more. Are some talking about all snakes in general and others are reporting on pit vipers, or is there some uncertainty about the exact percentage?

[matt gilbert]

In response to Dragon188's reply:

Did you know that 87% percent of statistics are made up on the spot?

I got my 40% from the lady who gave the presentation at REI. For what thats worth... They are most likely talking about pit-vipers and the statistics just conflict. If you check the dates of the information you might find that they're from 10 or 15 years apart, that would account for a discrepancy

[azhiker96]

I'd have to agree with Matt on the statistics. I've never seen a true study designed to find out how often venom is injected in a defensive strike. Maybe you'll find one and can share that information here. Otherwise, just reference whatever source you find. I've had several encounters with rattlesnakes and have never been bitten or even struck. I did know a guy in the late 80s who told me he had worked at the National Venon Research Lab in Utah. While he was there they tried to replicate the original experiment that was used to support the first snakebite kits. The original experiment had many flaws, among them were distemper deaths among the dogs used to test the theory. Anyway, the lab was not able to extract a significant amount of venom using cut and suck. As a note, the clear fluid that some folks get with their extractors is probably largely lymph. If you really want a great paper, see if you can dig up the original experiment and look at it's procedure objectively.
Good luck!

[Marc LaBelle]

What about insect bites. I took one on the foot the other day, and I think I may have panicked too quick, and cut the hike short. (Sorry trishness). It looked like it could have been a large red ant, a velvet ant or even a black widow. I know, I know, the black widow probability is far fetched, but it happened so quick, and it stung like nothing I have felt before. It had a dark body with a lot of red in it, it was about 1/4 inch long, and that is all I remember. It looked like an ant's body, and clung to my sock like a fly to poop.
The result was a painful sting on the top of my foot, that did not seem to move any further than that. there was also a half-dollar sized red spot. no swelling, or increased heart rate. There were no anaphylactic symptoms at all. I just wish i knew what it was.

Marc

[Daryl]

It wasn't a black widow. You'd know if it was.

I'm pretty sure there aren't any bugs in Arizona that have fatal bites. The black widow and a scorpion will make life miserable for a few days and can kill people that are allergic but that's the worst of it.

Since it crawled up your leg and bit you, I'd guess it was an ant. Most spiders won't bite without a good reason but an ant may have been trying to pull off a chunk to eat.

[matt gilbert]

Daryls right, you would definately know it if it were a black widow;

It might have been a velvet ant from what you described, check it out:

http://www.desertusa.com/mag01/feb/papr/ant.html

[azhiker96]

It could have been a harvester ant also. They tend to be dark red though without any black markings. The bite you described sounds like a harvester bite to me. They also hang on like the dickens. I've even seen the head still hanging on after the body was plucked off!

[montezumawell]

Sounds like an ant bite. They can be VERY painful!

J&S

[Marc LaBelle]

I looked at the harvester ant and velvet ant. It was definately the red velvet ant. I could not mistake that body coloring, and the positioning of the legs on the body. Now that I know, I feel a bit better. Thanks to all that gave me their advice.

FYI, montezumawell, I did not give the wasp the stomping I wanted to. I was in her place, and learned a great lesson. I let her go, and she, like all the women in my life stung me and walked away. haha

Thanks again to all who offered their advice.

Marc

[joe bartels]

...I was in her place, and learned a great lesson. I let her go, and she, like all the women in my life stung me and walked away. haha

hey that sounds really familiar
funny though, I don't recall the red velvet?

[Marc LaBelle]

I saw the velevet ant in pictures and was not convinced. Then Matt Gilbert sent me an address with a picture of a 'red' velvet ant, and this was it. the back legs are in the middle of the body, and they had the ability to cling like nothing else I've seen. I am glad this forum works. I have met good people and learned a valuable lesson, i.e., "Don't Panic."

Marc

[SuperstitionGuy]

Back to the main topic of snake bites.
The following article tells about the discovery of a topical cream that signicantly decreases the time it takes for the venum to pass through the lymphatic system.
This may be a very important method to treat snake bites in the future.


A chemical compound that is used on heart patients may raise chances of survival for snakebite victims, Australian scientists said on Monday. In a paper published in Nature Medicine, the researchers said the chemical nitric oxide can slow down by as much as 50 percent the time it takes for snake venom to enter the bloodstream.

With that extra time, victims can seek medical help, said lead author Dirk van Helden, professor at the School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Newcastle in Australia. "When you are bitten by a snake, the toxins are large molecules and they get injected into tissues. They can't break into blood vessels because they are too big. So they get taken up by the lymphatic system and it takes them into the blood vessels," Helden said in a telephone interview.

"The idea is to close off the lymph flow ... and we tried it and it markedly slowed lymph flow in rats and also in humans." In their experiment, Helden and colleagues rubbed an ointment containing nitric oxide around the spot where mice were injected with lethal doses of snake venom and found that it slowed lymph flow significantly.

"(They) lived for an hour on average (without ointment), but when we put the cream on, (another group of mice) lived for 90 minutes. If you can slow the lymph, it has a massive effect on survival," he said.

The ointment had the same effect on human volunteers, although in this case, the participants were injected with a harmless dye which had molecules of roughly the same size as snake venom.

Helden said nitric oxide had the effect of slowing down the pumping action of the lymphatic system, which in turn slowed down the transportation of the venom into the bloodstream.

Each year, snakebite accounts for an estimated 100,000 deaths and 400,000 amputations worldwide, mostly in South Asia, southeast Asia and sub-Saharan Africa because antivenom is not readily available.

Australia is home to some of the world's most venomous snakes.

Copyright 2011 Thomson Reuters