[Jim_H]

It looks like the only trail in the entire trail system at the South Rim of the Canyon which goes off of the Rim and has water taps on it is the Bright Angel Trail. Someone was telling me that there is a plan, or talk of a plan, or a rumor to install a line with water to a couple of locations on the South Kaibab. Does anyone know anything about this? I know some trails have seasonal water, and it looks like the Bright Angel and maybe one or two others have perennial water, but that isn't the same. It almost seems strange that there are so many trails, yet almost none have water. Given the climate at the Canyon, I mean.

[nonot]

Why one earth would anyone want to install more taps elsewhere, let's keep the tourons confined to one small piece we have to sacrifice.

[base871]

+1

[Jim_H]

-10.

Not looking for opinions on the matter, but if that all we have to offer, then why not take another heavily used trail and add a tap at the half way point? If isolation is what you want, then there are a dozen rim to river trails that have no water on them. Why not have one which has no mule urine and can be a little safer than 7 1/2 miles with all you can carry. Besides, how often do either of you two tourists make it to the Canyon?

[Rob del Desierto]

One...then two...then three...each time the argument applies: "Well, visitation is increasing, and there are all these others without water, why not add water taps to Grandview (or New Hance, or fill in the blank) since it'll keep people alive and reduce pressure on other trails." If you keep pushing back the frontier, eventually it disappears.
But to answer your question - I haven't heard anything about it, but I haven't lived down there for a while.

[azbackpackr]

Perennial water close to Grandview: Miner's Spring. Perennial water at Hermit Creek, Boucher Creek, Monument Creek. True there is none on Tanner or New Hance or S. Bass. Keeps the riffraff out.

[chumley]

I haven't seen or read anything about that happening either, and I have a hard time believing that there's any money in the budget for that sort of thing. After all, aren't they still trying to figure out how to pay for the above-the-rim light-rail system to alleviate parking congestion and pollution?

And as for the opinion you don't want ... the less improvements the better. And ban the mules too.

[Jim_H]

I would think adding a tap might actually hurt people due to the heat and the mindset of, "there's water so it must be safe". When it's a 110 and you're stroking out it doesn't matter if you're 5 miles or 1/2 mile from the tap. Especially for the single Aquafina Penny loafer crowd. I like the idea of a lot of the trails not having water, but the frontier died a long time ago, what with dams at either end, a restaurant at the river and designated campgrounds. For me, it's mostly economics that should keep water lines from being installed.

Someone told me that they thought there was supposed to be a line installed on the South Kaibab. If anyone would know I think it should be you Rob. My guess is that they have no plans to extend the line. If they could just do something about the walking piss trains, I mean the mule trains, then it almost wouldn't matter.

[Jim_H]

Perennial water close to Grandview: Miner's Spring. Perennial water at Hermit Creek, Boucher Creek, Monument Creek. True there is none on Tanner or New Hance or S. Bass. Keeps the riffraff out.

Also, don't some of the sources require knowing where they are off the trail or making detours? Not very acceptable for a dayhiker.

[nonot]

how often do either of you two tourists make it to the Canyon?

So far I have only had the privilege of visiting once, and I only managed some 75 miles of it over a week of backpacking. If your intent is to visit the more remote areas of the canyon then it sounds like you're ready to take the step from day-hiking to backpacking.

I am already getting the urge to go back for another long trip.

[Jim_H]

We are all tourists when we go there. Remote areas? Possibly, and in those cases I would never expect anymore than the natural sources. Just as I would never expect them in other places I have packed. Packing in the Canyon? I am thinking of doing an overnighter next month, but I have had my fill of long trips for a while. It's not my preference. Plus, I like the idea of the extreme heat of the place, so day trips to a swimming hole are the ideal. Solitude is so easy for me to find that I don't have an especially great need to get it in the Canyon.

[Al_HikesAZ]

I haven't heard anything and the logistics of adding taps doesn't make much sense when you look at the water situation at the Canyon. The taps are on the BA because the TransCanyon pipeline goes from the Roaring Springs Pumphouse to the Indian Garden pumphouse to the South Rim. All of the water on the South Rim comes from Roaring Springs via the Transcanyon pipeline. When you look at the hassles with that line and the importance of that line to the South Rim, I would expect any infrastructure money would go to improve that line before they would extend it miles across the Tonto to South Kaibab. And I can't see pumping it up to the South Rim only to then send it back down again. They don't have the luxury of that much money in the budget. I think that the water that is there is what it will be. Plenty of water on the North Rim because the Kaibab Plateau drains south into the Canyon. The Kaibab Plateau drains south away from the South Rim rather than north into the canyon below the South Rim. That is also why the South Rim is so much steeper, has so much less water and is less eroded than the North Rim. Just the hydrologics of the geology. Having visited, hiked and backpacked the canyon many times since my first R2R2R in 1969 and several times before that, I think I'm a little more than a tourist. But then again, maybe we are all just tourists here on planet earth for our brief rides around the sun.

[Jim_H]

All of the water on the South Rim comes from Roaring Springs via the Transcanyon pipeline. When you look at the hassles with that line and the importance of that line to the South Rim, I would expect any infrastructure money would go to improve that line before they would extend it miles across the Tonto to South Kaibab. And I can't see pumping it up to the South Rim only to then send it back down again.

I think that is exactly what happens, since the pump station at Indian Gardens sends water up to the treatment facility just south of the Kennels. They then send that treated water down to the taps on the BAT. If they extended the water taps, I expect they would simply extend the tap line down from it's terminus at the top of the South Kaibab. I agree about the financial reasons for maintenance of the line over expansion of the line down the South Kaibab. I had heard a rumor they had plans to do that, but it looks like that was just rumor.

I think I'm a little more than a tourist. But then again, maybe we are all just tourists here on planet earth for our brief rides around the sun.

Whether or not we consider ourselves tourists is just semantics. The following would like to be made without getting too philosophical or extending the tap question into a political debate, because that is what the original post was and still would like to be: a question. The tourist statement was made because of the attitude that somehow having a trail with water on it is unforgivably giving up a piece of one of the largest features on the surface of the earth, no matter how small that piece. Also, that somehow having done a recreational hike once or twice into the canyon makes you so much better, or more deserving, than the guy from France who visits and has to be rescued. To spell that out: no, I do not mean better in the, "I did 80 miles on my own", that is a clear distinction, but better in the attitude that you are somehow more deserving to use the canyon than the guy from France. Those people drop out after a short distance down the trail anyway, since hiking is so foreign to them. Even though the nature of a R2R2R is substantially greater than a walk on the Rim, it is essentially recreation and since it is nowhere near where most people live, it can be classified at tourism. Not the same as motoring from National Park to National Park on the Colorado Plateau to look them and snap pictures, but still a form of tourism.


I almost feel like this should have been started in the political forum, since I get the feeling it produces about the same response as a topic on guns.

[Al_HikesAZ]

. . .but better in the attitude that you are somehow more deserving to use the canyon than the guy from France. . . .I almost feel like this should have been started in the political forum, since I get the feeling it produces about the same response as a topic on guns.

Everyone is more deserving than some frog from France. I mean - get real. Even French Canadians are more deserving.

But back to the topic - The National Park Service is always balancing the mandate to preserve the parks in their natural state versus the mandate to make them available to everyone. It is a fundamental schizophrenia at the heart of our National Park System. And I think they do a pretty good job. Right now, the biggest issue is minimizing single vehicle access to GCNP by expanding the Shuttle System. The entire Backcountry permit system is designed to preserve the wilderness experience for those that explore the park by balancing impact. I am neither for or against water taps for dayhikers on the SK. Currently PSARs (proactive Search & Rescue) volunteers haul water and electrolytes down SK and across the Tonto to prevent incidents. It's much easier to prevent a bad situation than it is to bring in the NPS chopper. That will probably be a big factor in the decision.

My solution would be that the taps are only for people hiking out of the Canyon. Allowing water to people hiking down the Canyon will probably only get more folks into trouble.
Now back to politics - Economics is politics.

[Jim_H]

Get real: seeing someone as less deserving just because you don't like them for preexisting biases leads to far more than just a bad attitude about other tourists.


Hauling water and electrolytes down the South Kaibab? To who, and how? Do they leave them at locations with signs on them? I saw a 5 gallon container on the BAT, but just assumed it was someone's personal cache. I would never think to steal something left out like that, especially if they might really need it. Economics seems to be the basis for so much of our politics for the last 100 years or so, and that is a large part of the problem, but that is also a completely different topic. Perhaps one you could start in that forum?

[Al_HikesAZ]

Get real: seeing someone as less deserving just because you don't like them for preexisting biases leads to far more than just a bad attitude about other tourists.

I'm just an anti-social ole' SOB. I always have a crabby attitude. /sarc Actually I'm just pulling your leg. I like all tourists and their money. There is enough National Park for everybody.

Hauling water and electrolytes down the South Kaibab? To who, and how? Do they leave them at locations with signs on them? I saw a 5 gallon container on the BAT, but just assumed it was someone's personal cache. I would never think to steal something left out like that, especially if they might really need it. Economics seems to be the basis for so much of our politics for the last 100 years or so, and that is a large part of the problem, but that is also a completely different topic. Perhaps one you could start in that forum?

In the height of the season, the PSAR volunteers staff the 1 1/2 mile Rest house and the 3 mile Rest house tending to hikers with problems. I take extra electrolytes to them in the summer and I leave some extra Oral Rehydration Salts at the Backcountry Office. My info is that volunteers get free housing in the dorm, and get to buy a NPS Shirt at cost. Otherwise they pay all of their expenses. They wear the shirts while on duty. They help the Rangers and check Backcountry camping permits. Some hike the trails carrying extra water and electrolytes. If they cache anything anywhere they probably hide it. Mostly they just hike and help. They watch for signs of distress and help to prevent problems. If you've never had a problem, you have never had any occasion to know one.

[nonot]

There's a great source of water for everyone in the Grand Canyon - it's called the Colorado River!

Putting more water spigots up simply means that the South Kaibob will turn into the 2nd most deadly trail in the US. Development leads to more visitation, which leads to more irresponsible behavior from the average tourist buffoon, whether they be French or American. This happens with every wilderness that I am aware of. We've got the mules off the SK finally and let's work on getting them off the Bright Angel too! Then get rid of the spigots!

You can't force people to take responsibility for properly planning and provisioning for themselves, so let mother nature teach them a lesson and keep them confined to the Bright Angel where the rangers can babysit them.

Besides which, the park service is currently begging for millions to run the Grand Canyon maintenance for next year, so any significant development projects are laughable.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/08/24/20100824grand-canyon-future-at-risk.html

For someone who wants to discuss the facts, you sure don't know how to keep away from ad hominem attacks...

[big_load]

I'd rather they didn't.

[Canyonram]

Way too expensive to run water lines down the less traveled trails and then pay for the maintenance. Be thankful that water is at such a premium. If water were cheap and easy to supply, the Canyon would be covered with condos and Wal-Marts.

[imike]

They should simply install dehydrated water kiosks every 7 miles along each of the trails, make all hikers aware of them and how to put the packets to use.