[chumley]

Article in today's Republic highlighting the recent overuse of Fossil Creek.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1010rivers-trashed1010.html

I'm all for closing the road to public use ... or at least closing it to anybody without a permit like they did with Bulldog Canyon on the Lower Salt River.

If the only access is to hike from the top, you will significantly limit the number of people who use it as a party spot.

Maintain the road for official access only.

[te-wa]

so they want to push for a ban on overnight camping?!
what the hell kind of logic is that? many of us here know and preach that the overnight backpackers are usually in the minority of trashing the wilderness. There just arent that many overnight backpackers down there, it would be my guess about 5% of visitors stay the night. So that is their response? sad, very sad logic.

I was for imposing a fee as well, but upon further thought it came to me that if the forest service can get public approval for institution of fees in any wilderness, regardless of the impact, we can say goodbye to camping period. It wont take much of a catalyst to provide our wonderful government to start closing, changing and deleting the wilderness act and of public land policy. Many of us here at least want to take a stand, and some of us are fighting the pumpkin for control of "our" lands.

Scratch Fossil springs and Havasu Falls off my list, permanently.
thanks to the AZ republic for announcing the existance of Fossil Creek to the world, and then saying "oops". Nice.

[chumley]

I think the springs area itself isn't the real problem (at least not much more than it has been in the past) because it's a 3-4 mile hike and helps limit the visitors. Sort of like Havasu ... once they made hopping in and out on a helicopter as easy as it is, that's when things really took a turn.

As for Fossil Springs, I think the big problem is at the bottom of the creek near the power plant where the forest road crosses the creek. You can drive a honda civic down there without any problem, and it's the easy vehicular access and the areas adjacent to the road that are the real problems. Compounding the problem is the easy access from both sides of the creek ... Camp Verde and Payson.

Most spots in Arizona that have road-access to water have either been closed or very strictly managed. That's going to have to happen here too. I don't know what the proposed status of the Fossil Springs Road is under the new FS Travel Management Plan set to go into effect in 09. If it's not currently proposed to be a closed road, they may want to rethink that one.

[hikeaz]

I'm pretty certain that they are referring to the incidental camps that are along, and just off of, the road.
I concur that the sites are a mess, although the area, itself, is awesome. Some people are just bound-and-determined to create a pigsty out of every place that they visit. re. 'Road Closure'- The road goes to the Verde River as well as through to Camp Verde, so closing it may have some unintended consequences.
It is my belief, after speaking with a couple of area rangers, that the USFS wants to have the whole Fossil Creek area become a 'no-overnight' area, and this sort of publicity is merely a bit of 'bottom-up accounting' on their part.
As much as I detest permits, that, to me, would be preferable to an overnight 'closure'. IMO, the yahoos who litter would drink just about the same amount of Bud Light during the day as they do now, and would put the cans the same place that they do now. And the ATV guys would still make a path/road wherever they felt like it.
So, to me, there doesn't seem to be a lot to be saved by closing the area to camping, other than the obvious - damage to living trees by these same yahoos.

off-rant,

kurt

[te-wa]

the USFS wants to have the whole Fossil Creek area become a 'no-overnight' area, and this sort of publicity is merely a bit of 'bottom-up accounting' on their part.
kurt

thats what I was trying to get at.
i'd rather understand what motivates adults to puposefully trash an area they just spent a half day enjoying. And imposing a fee? that might thin out the crowds but I think a measly $8 per person isnt going to stop litter. Take a look at Lockett Meadow- in my experience ever since the fees started more people showed up, and as a result the area is more damaged. I grew up going out to Needle Rock on the Verde to snag suckers, catch frogs and so on... Last time I went out there I almost cried. Guess what? Theres a FEE to Needle Rock.
I wish education and respect for natural wonders was a priority, not penalizing the innocent like you guys and myself. I cant understand how a grown adult can toss a bottle into the bushes knowing full well it aint gonna pick itself up. Its outrageous!

[tvl76]

I doubt that it is an adult that leaves the garbage behind. It's a younger ignorant crowd just looking for a place to party.

[chumley]

I just looked up the proposed travel management plan, which calls for FR 708 to remain open from Strawberry down and across Fossil Creek and up all the way to HWY 260 near Camp Verde. The spur road from Fossil Creek down to the Verde River and Child's Power Plant (FR 502) is also to be an open road, as is the road that climbs the ridge from Fossil Creek under the power lines toward the northeast eventually also reaching Hwy 260. (I believe this road is numbered FR 9D ... but don't quote me).

All other existing roads anywhere near here will be closed (including FR 154 / the Flume Road ... which has been closed for years).

The new travel management plan will limit vehicular use to one car-length from these open roads. But enforcement will likely be an issue in the area near the creek.

[joe bartels]

I'd rather have twenty mile access then a penny permit.

[Hoffmaster]

I doubt that it is an adult that leaves the garbage behind. It's a younger ignorant crowd just looking for a place to party.

You must not have ever been to Fossil Creek. Trust me, it's adults.

[matt gilbert]

You shouldn't worry too much, even if they impose a fee and no camping restrictions, they don't have the man-power to enforce it... Especially if the road is closed and you have to hike in. Arizona only has a handful of back-country rangers left.

This area getting trashed isn't really news, not new news anyway. The trashing has been in the works for years and years. I'm glad they decided to start paying attention to it, but it really seems like it's too little, too late. I say close access to everyone but those willing to walk; increase the distance you have to carry a cooler and you will see a reduction in the amount of trash.

[tvl76]

I say close access to everyone but those willing to walk; increase the distance you have to carry a cooler and you will see a reduction in the amount of trash.

X 2

[jkern15674]

You shouldn't worry too much, even if they impose a fee and no camping restrictions, they don't have the man-power to enforce it... Arizona only has a handful of back-country rangers left.

Matt, why don't we encourage people to follow the rules instead of breaking them on the premise that they don't have anyone to enforce them???

[rally_toad]

This really is sad. Every time I go out there it is more and more trashed. However I have seen more wildlife out there since they decommissioned the dam.

Last time me and my friend spent the night we were kept company by ignoramuses singing, they were obviously drunk. Also after going past the dam I scould smell marijuana. It has become a party spot for young people.

Me and my companion are both very young and yet we put up a makeshift camp. Picked up first thing in the morning, swam some and then headed out leaving no trace of our visit. I think they should have permits to go here, and limit visitors to 10-15 per night. (Arent groups supposed to be less than 15 in Wilderness areas? Usually I see single groups of 20-40 people when I am there)

Why do people come here to enjoy nature and then leave condoms, beer bottles, and half full mountainhouses everywhere?

[chumley]

I could smell marijuana.

Could have been the 4000 plants growing just upstream ... DPS couldn't have managed to eradicate ALL of them, could they?

[te-wa]

... we were kept company by ignoramuses singing, they were obviously drunk. Also after going past the dam I scould smell marijuana. It has become a party spot for young people.

I hope you're not insinuating that only young people get drunk and sing. I do that all the time.

[azbackpackr]

I don't think trashing a place has to do with someone's age or whether people have brought some liquor or marijuana along with them to enjoy in the evening. Some of the backpackers I hike with quite often bring those things along. I think taking care of a place has to do with an awareness and education about (and learning to CARE about) a wilderness ethic, leave-no-trace, etc. I agree more should be done to try to teach these ignorant yahoos about this. Some might just hear the message. And making the hike longer wouldn't hurt, either. There could be a sign explaining why the hike is longer. "You trashed the place, now if you want to go there you'll have to hike further to get there."

[matt gilbert]

You shouldn't worry too much, even if they impose a fee and no camping restrictions, they don't have the man-power to enforce it... Arizona only has a handful of back-country rangers left.

Matt, why don't we encourage people to follow the rules instead of breaking them on the premise that they don't have anyone to enforce them???

If we could get people to follow rules then we wouldn't be in this mess (figuratively and literally, of course) in the first place.

Really, my comments were meant to be taken in a very cynical and somewhat sarcastic light.

And to be fair, I never encourage people to break the rules solely on the premise that no one will enforce them. Usually when I encourage people to break the rules it's because I find some fundamental fault with the rules. Think civil disobedience, not wanton anarchy.

[azpride]

I doubt that it is an adult that leaves the garbage behind. It's a younger ignorant crowd just looking for a place to party.

The faith you have in "adults" and your contrasting complete dearth of faith in young people concerns me.

Also after going past the dam I scould smell marijuana. It has become a party spot for young people.

I usually bring some nature-enhancing grass along (so long as it isn't offensive to whomever I happen to be with at the time) and if anything, I feel more inclined to preserve all of the beauty around me after indulging.

I'm tired of people feeling the need to target a specific group over issues like this. I'm young, and much of the time I have to keep my young friends "in check" when we're in the wilderness to ensure that they leave everything as they found it. When I visit places like Fossil Creek and Oak Creek, however, I find that age is not consistent amongst people who aren't concerned about preserving nature; it's just a careless attitude. If somebody likes to drink and party, they'll probably enjoy drinking and partying in the wilderness. If somebody enjoys drinking and partying, frequently has free weekends, possesses the means and money to travel far to do so, and has friends with free weekends who are also willing to trek into the wilderness... well... they're probably not high school or college age kids. This is of course also ignoring the fact that an adult is anybody 18 years of age, because if you look at it like that, I would guarantee that at least 90% of people trashing fossil creek are adults.

On the other hand, people like my parents consider anybody under 35 young. Under these terms, yes, most of the trash at fossil creek is thanks to young people. That is still unfair and completely misleading, however, because "young people" automatically infers that it is 21 year old careless punks like myself causing everything.

Either way, any sort of stereotyping, whether or not there seems to be any hint of truth to it, upsets me. No, Mexican people aren't ruining Phoenix, Muslims don't all want to bomb the US, and kids aren't singlehandedly ruining your wilderness experience. It's a bummer when you can't just point a finger and be done with it, isn't it?

And for the record, I contain my marijuana aroma to only the most secluded spots.

[azsixshooter]

Legalize the marijuana. More people would be sensitive towards the environment and if all they litter they toss is a roach maybe it'll have a seed in it and then is it litter or just planting a tree?

[te-wa]

Maybe release a high number of pack wolfs in the area?

oh that felt good