[matt gilbert]

So, after my 100 miler, I want to get into winter camping. I have a friend who's from colder climes, he's going to be making sure I don't die...

We were originally looking at Baldy, but since access is such an issue we've decided to find something else. We were thinking maybe Mt Wrightson down south. The trip is tentatively slated for early november. I'd like some suggestions for places that will likely have some snow by then. We're planning for three days including travel. We'd like to go within four hours of phoenix.

[chumley]

Winter camping ... in November? Matt I know you know better than that. This is Arizona.

It's also a La Niña year, which in the past has kept even the San Francisco peaks entirely void of snow as late as February.

With that said, head for the higher elevations. The White Mountains will have that winter feel by Christmas even if there's no snow. The lakes freeze and clear nights are very cold. And regardless of the weather, there's relatively good access via US 191 to Alpine and Hannagan Meadows and 273 (i think?) to Big Lake.

In general, however, February and March are Arizona's snowiest months if snow is your main ingredient in winter camping.

I find that the western Mogollon Rim is chillier than the white mtns however, even at lower elevations. The area along Forest Highway 3 / Lake Mary Road between Clints Well and Flagstaff is a good starting point. Most of it is in the 7000+ foot range, but there's a few 8000+ mountains, including Mormon.

I also find that once it has snowed a bit, the portion of the Mogollon Rim west of Heber where FR300 meets HWY 260 tends to keep snow for the season. Promontory Butte (which I believe is still closed due to spring fire) is 8000 feet, and the lakes near there do freeze. (Bear Canyon, Knoll). Keep in mind that after snow, the forest roads up there are often closed to all motorized traffic. (except snowmobiles)

While I've never been there in the winter, I've heard that the North Rim of the Grand Canyon is spectacular in winter. Not sure about access though.

---
On a sidenote, I attempted a winter-season camping trip once to a spot not far from Promontory Butte. The weather called for light rain and cool temps in the 40s, possibly mixing with snow overnight at the highest elevations. At 2pm it started snowing. HARD. By sunset, there was 6 inches of snow and still coming down. It was too wet for us to get any kind of a fire going, and our tarps and tents were soaked and heavy wet snow was weighting them down. At 8, we packed up and drove back to the valley. Put the tents up in the back yard, built a fire, and started drinking. We didn't even allow going inside to use the bathroom or make food . It was winter camping ... Tempe style. And after that little snowstorm ... that's how I prefer my winter camping!

[azpride]

For some reason I thought that any access to the North Rim closed after the first snowfall of the year. I think I read that somewhere...

[Dschur]

They close most of the roads on the rim as soon as the snow get on the ground and remain closed for the season. Both by Woods Canyon and up by Clints Wells. You have to keep checking the coconino website for the road conditions by Clints Well and area there. Forest road 300 is one that they close too. The Woods Canyon Lake and Willow Springs lake are in Apache-Sitgreaves forest.

[Dschur]

For some reason I thought that any access to the North Rim closed after the first snowfall of the year. I think I read that somewhere...

Yep they close from Jacob Lake to the Canyon rim right at Jacob Lake for the season as soon as the snow comes.

[matt gilbert]

Sorry, the date should have been early December... That still sounds sketchy though.

[chumley]

access, schmaccess!

a backpack and some snowshoes and you can get anywhere

[te-wa]

you guys want to do a rim-to-rim with crampons Im down with that!

I prefer warm + snow instead of bone chilling and no snow. Clint's Well makes AZ's list for coldest place in the state several times a year. No thanks! Theres just not enough on the Mogollon Rim to keep a guy interested. Unless you really, really like poderosas.
Woody Mtn rd going south of Flag will take you to some nice places and you can drop off the Rim into West Fork and other cool canyons for exploring. If not, you can beat the -10 degree temps by hiding out in the (comparitively balmy) Lava River Tube.
I would wait til March or late Feb to expect any measureable snowfall.

White Mountains are full of surprises and you can bet on more snow on that side of the Rim. I know ive seen a book on Arizona Snow Camping which I thought was a hilarious title but you might check into it.

[matt gilbert]

I've been looking for a book and haven't seen one yet, at least I know there may be something out there.

Snowshoeing was definatley on the list, but the whole highway is shut down. I didn't figure on doing another 100 mile hike immediately... Then again...

[Ace4]

Make sure your tent can support the weight of a night's snowfall on it, unless you want to have to wake up every hour to clear it off during the night. I'm not sure how wet the snow is around here, I would think it would be rather powdery. If you use 2 sleeping pads, you can't even tell that you're laying on snow and it makes it easier to keep your bag dry. I've never used snowshoes before, I've always been in wet or frozen snow. I wonder how well a tarptent holds up in a snowstorm.

[matt gilbert]

So far the tent is the only piece of equipment that I will be adding to my gear room. I'm looking at some of mountain hardwear four season tents. I just don't know which one I want yet.I already have a ridgerest and a prolite, which I planned on stacking together with a 15 degree bag and a liner. I was actually considering just using my SD zagori bivy, I've been told that it is sufficient for winter camping, and since I don't know any better I might have to give it a go.

[Ace4]

I used a ridgerest & prolite 3 with a 15 deg bag, no liner, and was fine on snow with temps to the mid teens at night. Make sure you keep your feet dry, probably put an extra pair of socks in your bag to use at night so your feet can dry out if they get damp during the day.

[te-wa]

Ive always dreamed of building an igloo- maybe you can do that a week before you head out. summit Humphreys in the snow with shoes/crampons and return to your igloo that evening. one can easily be built using a personal size hard sided cooler. Igloo brand coolers would of course be the choice! it takes about 100 cooler "bricks" to make an igloo, but with just a tiny flame you can heat it a few if not a dozen degrees. Matt, didnt you take a survival class and if so did the instructor go over the finer details of this method? im curious.

let me know when this will happen maybe I can tag along as Ive been looking for snowshoes on sierratradingpost.com and such.

[matt gilbert]

We only briefly touched on the finer points of igloos in that class. The course was in the spring so there wasn't any snow anywhere by the time we got around to field exercises. I've read an awful lot about building igloos though and I find the whole idea of snow caves and such intriguing (and a little terrifying; houses built of snow, what kind of idiot thought that up!?!).

I'll keep you posted on the trip. Nothing is set in stone (or ice) yet.