[jeffmacewen]

In fact, Tucson is in "bowl"..

[azbackpackr]

I thought it was amusing when I first moved up here. I had never heard the term used before, and it is commonly used here. I remember mentioning to the first person who said it to me that I would bet I had climbed a LOT more mountains than they ever had, but of course, it really refers to urban people "not from here."

I am getting a little tired of this place at this point in my life. Not the mountains really, but the people here. The ones who have moved here from the "flatland" who I actually may have something in common with (hikers, mtn. bikers) are a pretty cliquish (sp?) bunch. The ones who are "from here" are usually pretty nice folks, but I have nothing in common with them. There is absolutely nothing to talk about after you have heard and acknowledged that yes, indeed, there is a sale on chicken today at Safeway, better get down there quick before it all sells out.

[SuperstitionGuy]

One thing we can all tell you flatlanders, though, and that is how to SPELL Eagar..

Of kourse I knu how to spel EEgar, Te prblem is this kuazy ceybord % treing to pik the kys thiiis latt at nihgt.

butts itz tyme for gud nicht...

[hikeaz]

THE FIX IS IN

Report Charges Federal Land Agencies With Suppressing Public Participation In Fee Decisions

DURANGO, CO The Western Slope No-Fee Coalition today released a report charging the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management with intentionally suppressing public involvement in the implementation of access fees on public lands.

The report, entitled "The Fix Is In," provides examples from around the country showing that the federal advisory committee process that is supposed to bring the public to the table when fee decisions are being made is instead keeping the public out.
The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (FLREA) requires that new Forest Service and BLM fees, as well as fee changes, be recommended for approval by Recreation Resource Advisory Committees, or RecRACs, before they can be implemented. Committee members are appointed by the Forest Service and BLM to represent a variety of public lands users. The FLREA requires that the agencies document general public support for each fee proposal they submit, before the RecRAC can recommend approval of the proposal.

The most fundamental problem with the process, according to Western Slope No-Fee Coalition President Kitty Benzar, is the committee selection process. "Members are supposed to represent the public, but they are hand-picked by the Forest Service and BLM. They are from groups that are beholden to the agencies for their particular recreational activity, and are likely to do the agencies' bidding," she explained.

To date, the RecRACs have approved at least 523 fee increases and 228 new fee sites in less than two years. Only 27 fee proposals have been turned down. (This in itself seems proof enough that the 'fix is in' - GEEZ!)

"It's a rubber-stamp operation," said Benzar.

The report cites and substantiates numerous cases where fee proposals have been approved without the required documentation of public support, and even in the face of documented public opposition. Other problems with the process include:

a.. Meetings held on weekdays when ordinary citizens can't conveniently attend.
b.. Meeting dates and agendas withheld from the public and changed at the last minute.
c.. RecRACs holding meetings by telephone or attending members-only field trips, in violation of open-meeting regulations.
d.. Communications from the public to RecRAC committee members being filtered, censored, and misrepresented by agency officials.
e.. Minutes documenting decisions made by RecRACs delayed for months before publication, and not including specifics of recommendations or individual vote tallies.
Three case studies describe efforts in Idaho, Colorado, and Illinois that succeeded in blocking some fee proposals. In those cases, according to Benzar, "Ordinary citizens took it into their own hands to do what the Forest Service and BLM had failed to do. They got the word out about the fees that were proposed, when and where the RecRAC would be meeting, and how to submit comments. These federal agencies have even more tools available to get the word out, if they really want to. Why aren't they?"

Benzar asserts that the agencies are intentionally making minimal efforts to involve the public because when the public is really involved, many fee proposals will fail.

"Opposition to public lands fees remains strong nationwide," she said. "This should be taken into account by the RecRAC committees and the agencies, not suppressed or ignored. The Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management are presenting Congress and the public with a false picture of public involvement in fee decisions."

[big_load]

Unfortunately, that's no surprise. Many consider this heresy, but I'd rather see the government take full responsibility for these areas at an increased cost than to funnel money (with little oversight or tainted oversight) to for-profit contractors.

[jeffmacewen]

I'll reiterate my earlier sentiments: as long as the $$$ goes to the forest I'm paying to enter and not some $700B bail-out or other travesty du jour, I'm down...

[cactusrose63]

Okay, so I am sure I am going to say something completely unpopular...I guess I never minded paying the entrance/amenity fees because I figured that's how we help keep trails groomed and help offset the cost of water use, etc at these parks. For me, twenty dollars a year seems like a steal for all the trails in the Catalinas, restrooms I use, water I drink. I know there is less money available from the government because we spend it other things like wars and such...ooh, there goes those politics again. It just seems inevitable that there will be less money available from the government to support these services. NOW I guess I am wondering, how did these fees ever get started anyway, who is doing the accounting and where does all the money go? Someone please educate me on all this!

[azpride]

Fees don't bother me much, unless I just want to do a quick jaunt up Thumb Butte in Prescott and it costs me $3 to park for 20 minutes. At parks such as White Tanks, though, I'm more than happy to shell over some cash for the well maintained trails and and trash-free experience, in spite of the volume of visitors they see every day. I haven't really been following this thread so I may be way off topic.

[joe bartels]

I'm kinda with you guys but you're gonna give Kurt a seizure.
I "think" his two main points are
A) You already pay taxes why are you being charged again?
B) Why develop anything? Close the entrance off all together, it cost less and it's more effective. It'll be less crowed. Less responsible people wouldn't bother entering either.

Maybe I'm way off, I haven't been studying my Kurt-o-omic handbook lately

[jeffmacewen]

I'm kinda with you guys but you're gonna give Kurt a seizure.
I "think" his two main points are
A) You already pay taxes why are you being charged again?
B) Why develop anything? Close the entrance off all together, it cost less and it's more effective. It'll be less crowed. Less responsible people wouldn't bother entering either.

Maybe I'm way off, I haven't been studying my Kurt-o-omic handbook lately

In all honesty, that would be fine with me, too. It would take nature longer than my lifetime to totally reclaim a lot of the trails I like to use near me and I can close my eyes and picture their course from start to finish; so the notion that I, personally, must have "maintained" trails is a contradiction. Even if most of the trails I love devolved into routes and I had to whack a little more than I do now I'd still love every second of it.

That was the "selfish" Jeff talking; now for the more sensible one: If the trails fall into a state of complete disrepair it will alienate two critical communities to hiking here in southern AZ. First, the older, retired contingent who are hyper-active in local politics, who spend more money than all of the rest of us put together keeping places like Summit Hut open for us to enjoy, and who volunteer the lion's share of time spent building things like the AZ trail and doing conservation work. They also hike more in a week than I do in a month...and I hike a lot (Retirement is gonna be a blast in forty years ). Many of them who are avid hikers now would lose interest if they had to cut their way into a class "C" trail to find their favorite bird species. They'd most likely give up on the endeavor and work on their golf game. That would have a major impact on the rest of us.

The second critical community is mainly comprised of folks from the Bases nearby and the University. Young people will go hiking and expose themselves to unwarranted risk to prove their masculinity, better their ranking on YouTube, or for no other reason than to experience danger. Others out there will go out on long hikes with next to no water, alone, and inexperienced in the dead heat of summer, etc. There's no accounting for the level to which human stupidity can arise. It's hard enough to rescue these poor, uninitiated souls when they injure themselves needlessly on a well-developed trail...imagine if they say: "I was headed to Finger Rock through the scrub and I fell somewhere near some trees and now I'm bleeding badly and getting cold and tired" instead of: "I fell being stupid near the first vista on the Finger Rock trail. The rest of this story tells itself. (Remember, most of these people don't have proper footwear, let alone a GPS).

Just some food for thought...

[nonot]

The trail which needs the most rescues each year is the Bright Angel trail, right? Goes to show you that making a trail better doesn't make it less prone to idiots getting in over their head.

To fight politicians you have to be a politician, what a distasteful thought. Paying to hike on public trails isn't much different than paying to go to games at a football stadium built with tax money.

[big_load]

I'd also like to re-emphasize that the private contractors who benefit most from the fee demo program have no incentive to maximize the application of those fees to trail care or resource maintenance. In fact, their incentive is just the opposite.

[jeffmacewen]

You missed my point. Making the trail more accessible makes finding the people who g out and get injured easier to locate and reach. They're going to go out an injury themselves (probably) anyway, why add to the confusion by forcing them into what would be the de-facto back country?

[cactusrose63]

Those are private contractors that run the fee demonstration programs??? I always thought when I pay my money to go to Sabino and Mount Lemmon, this money was going to the National Forest Service for them to use for upkeep.

[joe bartels]

Like anything government... a small portion is, the rest is administrative. If it was such a grand idea they'd contract out the president, congress, etc. Wait a minute... that's pretty much how it is

OMG I'm starting to sound like Kurt and it's all making sense. HELP! take me out into the desert and leave me in peace

[jeffmacewen]

Well, I can tell you this definitively: For every American solder in theater in the middle east there is at least one American contractor and probably three or four third-country national contractors. All being paid by the US taxpayer...

[hikeaz]

You missed my point. Making the trail more accessible makes finding the people who go out and get injured easier to locate and reach. They're going to go out an injury themselves (probably) anyway, why add to the confusion by forcing them into what would be the de-facto back country?

I believe that it's called 'personal responsibility'; granted it's a dying concept.

Consider, that for eons, folks that made errors in the outdoors perished. Likely, that is part of evolution; learning what could kill you and working to avoid it. Helicopter rescues of folks that are mobile, but a little 'cold' or who went out without illumination, especially from such places as Squaw Peak, Camelback and the like is reversing evolution, as these folks are not now precluded from reproduction whereas if they had perished they would be.

[te-wa]

Helicopter rescues of folks that are mobile, but a little 'cold' or who went out without illumination, especially from such places as Squaw Peak, Camelback and the like is reversing evolution, as these folks are not precluded from reproduction

isnt that somethin' Kurt? scares the hell outta me man.
and the same thing could be said about cancer risk through inherited genetics, or bad eyesight, or other life threatening (ailments?) and diseases. In fact, ive said it before myself. We're going backwards as we present the notion of going forward...One of the simplest examples is the use of modern medicine on Navajo tribe members - while the infant mortality rate is lessened, and the overall health of the tribe is increased, now they suffer from overpopulation and food shortage, rampant unemployment and which can lead to drug use issues (alcohol included) Its a simple effect to understand, really.
The same revenge effect is true IMO about the fees for camping, rec. use, or other "reason" to double tax us Americans. Seems like Joe sarcastically touched on the idea, but I think yes it is easy for someone to trash a place. "i paid $5 for this here pass, let someone do their job and clean up after me"
Its almost and enabling fee.

well, you can also be lazy and let some kid retrieve your shopping cart too, after all, that is his job... but dont complain about high grocery prices to me!
(not that it increased the price of food too much, but you get the point. To a much larger extent the cost of food is directly related to Globalization given to us by - guess who - politicians (the folks that all want a better education for your child, while they suffer - and want to reduce the national debt - as it continues to grow - funny how they all bark about fixing this or that, and they are the sole perpetrators of the issues they argue against. AND NO PARTY in power is going to change. If it takes a stormtrooper style invasion of congress and the white house so we can rid our culture of these monsters and make an example of them, so be it. Jeff has a few rifles, Im sure he will let us borrow them.)

Id like to go into the Red Rocks wilderness office and dump a full trash bag on the counter, then tell them "look what I just picked up, Id like my $5 back, please"

man, reading posts like these really brings out my cynicism... But I see at least 10 people a day do very selfish, unreasonable acts that makes me remember what Perry Ferrel said once "some people should die... that's just unconscious knowledge"

[jeffmacewen]

Helicopter rescues of folks that are mobile, but a little 'cold' or who went out without illumination, especially from such places as Squaw Peak, Camelback and the like is reversing evolution, as these folks are not precluded from reproduction

isnt that somethin' Kurt? scares the hell outta me man.
and the same thing could be said about cancer risk through inherited genetics, or bad eyesight, or other life threatening (ailments?) and diseases. In fact, ive said it before myself. We're going backwards as we present the notion of going forward...One of the simplest examples is the use of modern medicine on Navajo tribe members - while the infant mortality rate is lessened, and the overall health of the tribe is increased, now they suffer from overpopulation and food shortage, rampant unemployment and which can lead to drug use issues (alcohol included) Its a simple effect to understand, really.
The same revenge effect is true IMO about the fees for camping, rec. use, or other "reason" to double tax us Americans. Seems like Joe sarcastically touched on the idea, but I think yes it is easy for someone to trash a place. "i paid $5 for this here pass, let someone do their job and clean up after me"
Its almost and enabling fee.

well, you can also be lazy and let some kid retrieve your shopping cart too, after all, that is his job... but dont complain about high grocery prices to me!
(not that it increased the price of food too much, but you get the point. To a much larger extent the cost of food is directly related to Globalization given to us by - guess who - politicians (the folks that all want a better education for your child, while they suffer - and want to reduce the national debt - as it continues to grow - funny how they all bark about fixing this or that, and they are the sole perpetrators of the issues they argue against. AND NO PARTY in power is going to change. If it takes a stormtrooper style invasion of congress and the white house so we can rid our culture of these monsters and make an example of them, so be it. Jeff has a few rifles, Im sure he will let us borrow them.)

Id like to go into the Red Rocks wilderness office and dump a full trash bag on the counter, then tell them "look what I just picked up, Id like my $5 back, please"

man, reading posts like these really brings out my cynicism... But I see at least 10 people a day do very selfish, unreasonable acts that makes me remember what Perry Ferrel said once "some people should die... that's just unconscious knowledge"

[hikeaz]

Yep - I figured, that considering your avatar, you'd get a kick out of that 'evolution' reference.