[azbackpackr]

Ok, summer has started and I am going to start my same rant as last year and the year before and the year before that and the year before that, etc. I have had several PMs about it this year so far and decided it's time for a new thread about it. Apparently no one has read anything I wrote this spring or last summer, either. Grrr. I am frustrated because I would like my acquaintances on HAZ to enjoy the summit, but there is still a lot of misinformation about it.

There is no reason you should not summit Baldy if you are climbing it. Ignore the FS Springerville office--they never go there and their info is old, ignore what you have read in the past, ignore whatever it says on the original write-up here on HAZ, too! Just go to the summit! It has a huge cairn, you can't miss it.

Hundreds of other hikers are summiting every year, so why not HAZ members? Why would you want to miss out, after you put the effort in? There is no one going to stop you, and plus, the "white man's" summit is in the NF!! Hike up the steep rocky trail thorough the bald grassy spot to the big huge cairn, about 6 feet tall. Don't go any further than the big cairn, or you will make the Apaches mad. They don't care too much if you go to the first summit, though, and they will not bother you. There are usually a couple hikers' registers at the big cairn if you're inclined to sign such things. I have almost never had the summit to myself, (except in fairly cold weather in the fall) because there are always other hikers coming up.

[mikehikes]

Go get 'em Eagar! (And I totally agree with what you wrote.)

[azbackpackr]

[oceanwithin]

Ah, what a great mountain!! I haven't been there in years but your post makes me want to go to the top again

[azdesertfather]

azbackpackr, I certainly want to believe you, I wanted to summit when I was there a few weeks ago. Even though the signs have fallen down, I know that those posts that I stopped at to head back down Baldy were the ones that had the signs from at least as recently as 2006 that read "Do Not Enter" (http://hikearizona.com/phoZOOM.php?ZIP=31059), even though the trail keeps heading on beyond the signs toward the summit. These signposts are at 11,180 ft, more or less (N33.91707, W109.56576), a little more than 200 feet short of the summit.

Everything I read online says the peak is still off limits, not just on the HAZ site but also on Wikipedia, WMonline.com, trails.org, summit post org, arizona.sierraclub.org, and others. I tried again searching for anything saying that the Apaches were allowing non-Apaches up there on their own, and haven't found anything, including on news sites. Where can we find your more up-to-date information? That would be great if you could share that with us.

I have talked to a friend as recently as a couple of months ago who knew of someone getting caught past the boundary, going for the summit. The person's pack was confiscated and he was fined $500.

[azbackpackr]

I haven't heard any confiscation stories for years, other than yours. From what I understand, the Apaches took the sign down themselves. I summited June 25, 2006 with a couple dozen SAHC members and there was no sign. Looking at my notes and old SAHC bulletins, it seems that the year we found that big sign was 2001, but it was gone the next year. The big sign had been located just as you are hiking out of the little clearing where the East and West trails meet. You couldn't miss it. Also, I know that the SAHC peak baggers always have hit the peak except for that one year that the big sign was up.

Then there is the further peak, you definitely don't want to go to that one! Maybe that person who got caught went too far? Anyway, please at least get out there a short distance into the bald spot and see the view! You can see Mt. Humphreys, the Superstitions, the Mazatzals, the Catalinas, the Rincons, Mt. Graham, the Chiricahuas, the Gila Wilderness, and Mt. Taylor in New Mexico on a good clear day.

I once sat on the "white man's peak" and watched about a dozen Apaches in full native regalia doing a dance over on the other peak. I kid you not. I have told other hikers this and for some reason some people think I am making this up! It was quite something to see, although it was some distance away and I didn't have binoculars.

[Hoffmaster]

I once sat on the "white man's peak" and watched about a dozen Apaches in full native regalia doing a dance over on the other peak. I kid you not. I have told other hikers this and for some reason some people think I am making this up! It was quite something to see, although it was some distance away and I didn't have binoculars.

I have friends who have witnessed a similar event up there, so I believe you. I also agree with your rant. While I don't think Mt. Baldy is the best hike in the area, you should at least summit instead of getting close and turning around. If you have a topo map, it should be quite easy to figure out where you are, achieve the summit and stay out of trouble.

[azbackpackr]

Yes, that, too. I have often thought that you could ease through the woods, under cover, and grab the peak, then ease back into the woods.

I also think if you get up there and there are lots of other hikers summiting you are probably ok, but if you are the only one up there, then keep a lookout. Very early in the morning would also be a good time. Better for avoiding clouds and monsoon conditions, also.

[azdesertfather]

Which summit is off limits, in your opinion? Are you talking about Baldy's highest point?

[azbackpackr]

Some people say Baldy's highest point is not marked on the topo map as such.

I just go to the big, 6 foot tall cairn, the one all the hikers go to, where the hiker registers are, the first peak you get to, where the trail leads. I don't know if it is Baldy Peak or not. Someone else on here probably does know, though.

[johnr1]

The giant cairn is on Baldy North which can be considered the summit but is not the highest point. The bald, rocky peak to the immediate south is the Apache sacred peak and is higher. The only asign I found in late May was a tiny metal reservation boundry sign.

[azdesertfather]

Some people say Baldy's highest point is not marked on the topo map as such.
I just go to the big, 6 foot tall cairn, the one all the hikers go to, where the hiker registers are, the first peak you get to, where the trail leads. I don't know if it is Baldy Peak or not. Someone else on here probably does know, though.

OK, you're talking about the north summit, which is just a few feet under the main summit. This is the area inside the "MOU" of MOUNT BALDY on the topo map I've attached here. Saying that this peak isn't the highest elevation is just splitting hairs, it's so close it's unimportant (less than 10 feet). In fact, this topo map says the high/center peak elevation is 11,403, but Wikipedia and most others says it's 11,420. The peak that the Apaches worship on is the one that is techinically marked as "Mt. Baldy" and is the 11,420 peak. Then there is Mount Baldy South which is about 100 feet short of the high point.

Mount Baldy summits

The Apache boundary is right where the east and west trails meet, which are marked blue and red here. The signposts that used to be there before they fell apart were put up by the Apaches and forbid going any farther, onto the reservation. The trail which goes past the signposts where the east/west trails meet is on the reservation land and stops you short of going to the north/false summit, where the cairns I believe you saw are. As I said, if anyone gets information that the Apaches have changed I'd love to hear it, but nothing I have read says it's legal, including their own website, http://wmatoutdoors.org. Once you cross onto their land you are taking your chances.

This whole area (on their land) is CLOSED to all non-Apaches, as you can see from the image posted below, which comes off this website. On the site it says, "Reservation permits are required for all Outdoor Activities including fishing, hunting, camping, hiking, river rafting, sightseeing, picnicking, biking, and cross country skiing." With this map it says, "Feel free to recreate on all areas of the Reservation that are not 'Designated Closed Areas' (see Map)."

Baldy "closed" area

So I would again say, SUMMIT THE PEAK AT YOUR OWN RISK. You may be prosecuted.

[Jim_H]

Is the view from Baldy and the real summit all that impressive? Is it all that great during the time of year that everyone hikes it: summer? I know visibility on the Peaks is best in Winter, not summer, yet everyone goes up in summer when visibility is not so great. When I was in the lookout tower on Escudilla Mt in 2007 I had to use the fire finder to find Baldy Peak since it was such a gradual mountain that I didn't even realize I was looking at it. Since baldy isn't that high, and Escudilla is just behind it, I would just go to Escudilla if I felt I needed to get the view of the area.
Funny thing, when I was on the Peaks this winter some of the days were clear enough that I could see the White Mts and Ski Apache appeared to be visible. I don't know if Baldy blocked it, but when I was on Escudilla in 2007 I couldn't see the Peaks at all. It would be pretty cool to see the Peaks from the Whites.

[azbackpackr]

The best view I've seen from the top of Baldy was in the off-season. I think in the fall one time I had an incredible view.

I haven't seen the Peaks from Escudilla, but have seen Escudilla from the Peaks. You don't have a 360 view from the fire tower, since the fire tower is not on the actual summit. And of course, Escudilla's actual summit is so full of trees you can't see anything from it. (Not many climb Escudilla and go to the actual summit. It's not too hard to find with a map and compass or GPS, though. There is a giant cairn there, not as big as the one on Baldy, and a hiker register.

[chumley]

So the funny thing is that it seems that the location of the boundary changes. I've used a recent GPS route as an example:
http://hikearizona.com/location_g.php?L ... =15&M=6&G=

If you view the MyTopo layer, the boundary is clearly below the summit. However, if you view the TOPO layer, then the boundary is on the opposite side of the summit..

Since most wilderness boundaries are developed by physical landmarks, it seems reasonable to assume that the summit is the actual boundary. BUT I have fought with the WMAT over permits and their interpretation of tribal rules and laws versus my interpretation, and I assure you that you will lose every time. I have also been with somebody who had property confiscated. It can and does still happen. Tribal lands are sovereign. You have no rights. If they say you are on their land and you can't absolutely prove otherwise, then you are trespassing. Period. (Not to mention, "proving otherwise" may very well involve you at a tribal court in Whiteriver. And no, an AZ Bar license isn't valid in a WMAT court. Good luck getting an attorney!)

Here's the funniest thing about the whole thing in my opinion: The east trail CLEARLY crosses tribal land for an extended period on the slope below Mt. Thomas. Apparently hiking on this tribal land is just fine even if you are not a member of the tribe! The whole thing is silly, and I personally think hiking up a big mountain only to turn around a few feet from the peak is very anti-climatic. However, with my past experience with the tribal law officers and court system, I'll agree with David on this one: Summit at your own risk.

[Vaporman]

What if you just left your pack with some friends at the trail junction and just ran up to the peak, snapped some photos, and ran back down. I don't think they're going to confiscate the shirt off of your back and without an ID how will they know who they are giving that fine to... I suppose they could just arrest you, but that'd just make for bad publicity for them. Arresting a 'lost' hiker who just didn't have a good enough map to realize where the boundary is.

[azbackpackr]

I just wonder. I have sat up there by that big cairn when there are about 20 other hikers sitting there, looking at the view, and can look over and see there are some Apaches over on the other peak, and there just didn't seem to be an issue about it. They could see us, we could see them. No one has ever walked over to hassle the hikers when I've been there.

Incidentally, I've heard they can DRIVE to very near that other summit. Anyone know if this is true?

[cactusrose63]

I was just there this past Saturday with my husband and another couple. We did hike to the cairn you mentioned and you can't deny that the 360 degree view is pretty impressive, even if the weather/visibility is not perfectly clear. Anyway, there was a ceremony at the slightly higher "Sacred Summit" just finishing apparently when we arrived and a group of about twenty tribal members visited with us for a couple of minutes on their way down. We did not have any property confiscated, but we were very nicely informed that a permit IS required for anyone to visit the (lower) summit where we were at, even though there are no signs. They did happen to mention there is a parking lot about a quarter of a mile or so from the summit, for tribal members only of course. How sad...they miss the very impressive journey up the mountain through incredible terrain and beauty!

[azbackpackr]

Problem is that if you go to buy a permit they won't sell you one for Baldy. I think I will continue to take my chances. I tend to start hiking at 5 or 6 a.m., and usually hike East Baldy Trail, can usually summit in less than 3 hours, so I am probably usually there earlier than they are.

How many other hikers (non-Apaches) hiked up the trail that day you were there?

[cactusrose63]

Hmmm...about eight I believe, plus one Boy Scout group that had about six adults and twenty or so boys. They were doing a 20 mile hike that day for a hiking badge. We saw some of them near the meadow on the way back down the East Trail, they looked pretty tuckered out and they still had about 6-7 miles to go. I was glad we only did 15.2, being a low lander and all, the altitude got to me a bit. I was ready to be DONE.