[azbackpackr]

Hey, that is great you got a response and some interest from those folks! Who knows, maybe one will turn out to be a wolf!

[chumley]

October 8, 2010.
Associated Press

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is delaying the release of Mexican gray wolves in the Apache National Forest of Arizona until sometime next year.

The federal agency and the Arizona Game and Fish Department had expected to release eight wolves in the next few weeks under a program that began reintroducing wolves into the wild along the Arizona-New Mexico border in 1998.

Fish and Wildlife says it decided to step back and assess concerns raised about the program.

The endangered species coordinator for Arizona Game and Fish, Terry Johnson, says there's a need to get more wolves in the wild, but it has to be done in a way to ensure their best chance of success.

[azbackpackr]

Yeah, seeing as someone keeps shooting them. Better hold off until we have that idiot on ice.

[azbackpackr]

News from AZ G&F Dept. They are going to release a male wolf into the wild to replace one of the ones lost:
http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/NewsMed ... zona.shtml

[Moovyoaz]

Not that I support idiots who would try to derail the recovery program by shooting wolf pups, but for what it's worth, there IS an interesting opposite point of view to consider.

The 'Arizona Sportsman's Action Network' and other groups claim wolf re-introduction has devastated other wildlife populations (elk and deer) in the United States, like around Yellowstone. They are currently lobbying congress as follows ( http://tinyurl.com/33zt2kw ):

"12/11/10 McCain signs onto Wolf Delisting Bill - More Calls to DC Needed
Please thank Senator McCain for signing on as a co-sponsor of S 3919, Senator Hatch's Wolf Delisting Bill. If passed, the bill will remove the gray wolf from the endangered species list and states will be allowed to manage the wolf going forward. It is important that we show our appreciation when a Senator responds to our requests and Senator McCain has done just that.

PLEASE KEEP THE TELEPHONES RINGING IN DC. REPORTS INDICATE THAT WHILE CALLS ARE BEING MADE, WE STILL NEED MORE.

Hopefully most of you know by now that the Arizona Game and Fish Commission voted last Saturday to support S 3919 at the recommendation of Terry Johnson, the person who has given several years of his career and is responsible for the wolf recovery program in Arizona.

The Obama Administration now has a commitment for its own amendment to get attached to the Omnibus Spending Bill in the Senate. This amendment is bad. It increases the wolf recovery numbers in the Rockies (original number was 100 in each state of Wyoming, Montana and Idaho - they now are saying 500-700 minimum number in Idaho), gives the Interior Department complete authority over wolves with no state participation or input and contains provisions for re-listing if certain conditions are not met."

Seems everybody has an agenda now days, but it is good to hear and validate both sides of an issue, and make up your own mind. Then shoot the other side!

[azbackpackr]

In the White Mountains, the locals hate the elk because they tend to congregate in ranchers' fields, yards, and break down fences, and get into the haybarns in winter. They congregate in numbers of 500 to 1000, very commonly. Although a few locals make money off hunters by being guides/outfitters, most people just plain do not like the elk. It is an introduced species, and has gotten out of hand. There are few deer in the White Mountains now, due to the elk. Ask any older local about the deer. 40 or 50 years ago, it was uncommon to see elk, but common to see deer.

In talking to wolf biologists, and the original program director for the Wolf Recovery Project, while on a backpacking trip along Black River last summer, I learned that the only predator that will prevent elk from congregating in large herds, that will keep them dispersed so they do not decimate one area, is the wolf. The other major predators, which are mountain lions, human hunters and coyotes do not disburse elk. Elk need to be disbursed or they become worse than sheep or cattle, since they will not move from an area in winter until it has been grazed down to bare dirt, the bark chewed off trees, bushes killed, etc.

In the White Mountains we not only have the problem of elk congregating in winter, we also have just plain TOO MANY elk. AZGFD has held depredation hunts in winter time quite often, especially near the towns where the elk cause so much damage. The number of cow tags needs to be increased. People will hunt cow elk in order to fill up their freezers.

Oddly, locals do not like the wolf. They are worried about their cattle, which is a legitimate concern, since wolves will kill cattle. However, I doubt any of them know of the symbiotic relationship between the elk and the wolf. The forest needs the wolf, to keep the habitat safe from the elk! Hunters can help, but the wolf is the best predator for the elk. The wolf will also keep the elk scattered, so there will be enough graze for the cattle.

As for the hunters, most of them do not live in the area. They bring dollars to the White Mountains, but they do not live there, or understand the problems caused by TOO MANY ELK!

[Rob del Desierto]

I saw that AZGF voted to support delisting. I think that is an interesting move, though not entirely sure it is the right direction...

[Moovyoaz]

I saw that AZGF voted to support delisting. I think that is an interesting move, though not entirely sure it is the right direction...

I agree.

[Jim_H]

How are the tribes out there with the wolves? Between the two Apache reservations you would think there would be a fair amount of semi-private land where the wolves would be relatively safe from poachers. I know it isn't all higher elevation land, but there has to be some area for them.

[airic]

I haven't seen the actual bill, but the link above only says gray wolf and does not list species name. Very possible the bill does not include the Mexican gray wolf (Canis lupus baileyi), only the gray wolf. I haven't heard any talk on the street of the Mexi being delisted.

[azbackpackr]

How are the tribes out there with the wolves? Between the two Apache reservations you would think there would be a fair amount of semi-private land where the wolves would be relatively safe from poachers. I know it isn't all higher elevation land, but there has to be some area for them.

I honestly don't know the answer. They run a lot of cattle, the Apaches do. So, as with any group of people, I suspect there are differing views.

[Rob del Desierto]

One of the Apache reservations doesn't want wolves at all - they have to be removed from their land if they stray over the line.
The delisting bill would delist all subspecies of Gray Wolf.

[Jim_H]

Thats a strange thing, with the Apache. My guess is that the species might be de-listed and then eventually go extinct. Even though the SW USA has a much lower population than the rest of the US, or Europe, we've pretty much used all the resources that exist and made it over in that image. It just doesn't look like it since we have so much arid waste land. Oh well, there is still the Gila and Blue Range to hike through, but even there it isn't really wilderness. Just last June the Gila NF put out a lightning caused fire in ponderosa pine. How is that wild? How does that minimize man's impact ? It doesn't. Still, it's better than the joke wildernesses that are a slap in the face of anyone with a brain that works at 10% capacity. You know, the Kachina Peaks and Kendrick Mountain Wilderness.

[red dog]

Well, it looks like the official count for 2010 is showing an increase for the first time since 2006.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... exico.html

And the recent release of two wolves was news to me as well…hadn’t heard about that previously

[azbackpackr]

Very good, very good. Now if John Q. Redneck would just quit shooting them...

And if the cattle grazing people would just start to realize that wolves keep the elk herds scattered, so they don't bunch up into herds of 500 to 1000 in winter, we'd be on our way... I think the locals actually dislike elk more than they do wolves, although they don't like either one. They don't seem to realize that while the wolves may not eat a huge number of elk, they do keep them well-dispersed. NO other predator does that as well. If elk are not kept dispersed and on the move they will quickly decimate an area, just like a bunch of sheep. The locals may like to hunt elk but they do not like the elk getting into their pastures and haybarns in winter, and breaking down all their fences. It is very costly. And lest you say we should remove all the cattle, well, yes, but I don't think that is going to happen. And cattle grazing is managed by the government agencies a lot better than elk grazing. Just my opinion. There are far too many elk for that particular region to support. Even without the cattle.

To paraphrase Aldo Leopold, the forest fears the deer. The forest needs the wolf.

[PLC92084]

If Elk are such a big problem, why don't the various agencies open the affected areas to hunting? I'm sure there would be plenty of folks interested in getting a permit so they don't have to drive to Idaho, Montana, etc.

[azbackpackr]

The White Mountains are famous for elk hunts! Elk hunts are held from September through December, and depredation hunts during the winter. And cow/anlerless hunts, with lots of tags. Archery hunts, and muzzleloader hunts and junior hunts, etc., etc. It makes a dent. But there are something like 40,000 elk.

Human hunters do not accomplish herd dispersement. That is part of what we are talking about, not just the number of elk.

[Rob del Desierto]

I put in for some hunts over in the Springerville area this year...hopefully I get drawn.

[azbackpackr]

@PageRob
Unit 1 or Unit 27?

[Rob del Desierto]

I'd have to double check. I think 1.