[Kwai Chang]

Hi Kids - looking for advice about the need for step ins for ice on the SK and NK in Mid May. Will start my hike on the SK May 15th - down to PR - then up NK on the 16th thru the 18th then down NK and up BA. The sensible person in me says pack them ya might need em - but what is the general experience? Will I need them or are they going for a nice hike?

[autumnstars]

Of course you should check with the backcountry office shortly before your trip to find out for sure.
Also, visit http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/t ... osures.htm for updates on trail conditions.

However, in general, May is usually quite warm at the GC.
My husband and I did similar trips to what you have planned for the past 2 years (May 4-9, 2009 & May 16-21, 2010) and it was quite warm both times. No snow on the into-canyon trails although there was snow on the North Rim.

[azbackpackr]

I think of mid-May as HOT. I am pretty sure you'd never need those things in May. I hiked BA and SK in January this year, snow level went down three full miles of trail and I didn't wear those things, even though I had a pair in my pack.

[Kwai Chang]

Wow Liz - you just rock - I would be shaking in mah boots traversing those trails in the snow like that.....of course it helps to know where you are going.....

Thanks for the info and yeah I will be checking the weather like a religious convert each and every day.

Was wondering how far down the North side should I expect snow? Also since there IS snow and it WILL be melting then Roaring Springs should be ROARING right?

[azbackpackr]

You have to remember those are the very busy tourist trails. There are mules loosening up the snow on both SK and BA, and there are a lot of tourists. The snow and ice get pounded and loosened all day long. It mixes with the dirt and mule pee and mule poop and becomes this sort of sludgy reddish stuff that is not particularly slippery most of the time. I did use poles, but Jim_H did not. We both had crampons but did not use them.

I normally do not hike those trails, except in the off-season, since they are just too busy. I would have preferred a dayhike on Tanner or one of the other less busy trails, but those would have been pretty icy I believe.

[Dschur]

The north rim trail just depends on the year.... I have been up there every May (until the past couple of years) from about 1999-2008 or so and have had years that they didn't open up the north rim even on the May 15th had the road still closed until the 20th of May that year and then the snow was taller than the entrance gate. And piles of it a couple of feet on the rim but the trail was okay. Then other times it has been 120 in the bottom the first weekend it opens on the 15th of May. With not a hint of snow... Just depends on what it is going to do the rest of the spring...

[writelots]

Bring the buggers just in case. All of my early May experiences in the GC have been one thing: unpredictable. Once, we hiked in wearing shorts and T-Shirts, with a warm week in the forecast. At Monument Creek we got wind, at Granite Rapids almost too hot, then on our way out it snowed on us at Horn Creek. The snow actually stuck on the North Rim on that trip. With the GC, being prepared for anything is
crucial.

Of course, she'll still find some loop to throw at ya, but it wouldn't be fun if you knew exactly what was going to happen, would you?

[Sun Ray]

To me May is a shoulder month. June.... ya it's going to be hot. May... we are lucky that we can review long range forecasts and bring whatever we think we may need in the car to the GC and decide at the last minute what to take in our pack. I've got a trip planned for June 3rd and 4th as I could not get reservations at Phantom Ranch in May. I keep telling myself June 3 and 4 is SO close to May.

[Jim_H]

Judging by the last 3 May's it will be cool to cold, and windy to very windy at the south Rim, and cold and windy to very windy at the North Rim. The freak year, 2007, was warm by mid-May, but that is rare. Best to wait and see.

[Canyonram]

As others have pointed out, May is one bizzare month at the Canyon, You can get your first 100 deg F day at the River and have snow and freezing temps on the North Rim. This makes it one of the toughest months for gear selection and what to carry in your pack, not just ice crampons.

Have you purchased your crampons OR are you trying to make a buying decision based on the weather reports from the forum members?

If you don't plan to do any technical climbing, you do not need expensive crampons but can go with less expensive 'traction devices'. If you go shopping for 'crampons' the sale people will try to outfit you for Mt. Everest. There are several traction device brands out there that MAY suffice for the Corridor trails even if a bit icy or snowpacked. Yaktrak Pro is a light-duty pull-on for about $30. They worked OK for me while walking around on sidewalks, etc but as soon as I strapped on a pack and headed down a trail my weight broke them within a few yards. I then moved up to Kahtoola at about $60 at REI. These are also slip on microspikes but of a heavier construction. They have worked well for me the past few years. I keep them in my truck with my other 'survival gear' and make the decision at the trailhead if I want to carry them along or not.

You can also take an old pair of boots and make your own---I tried this on a worn pair of work boots and the technique actually worked---but I;m not doing it on my Lowa's. I had to epoxy around two screws that went through the worn out sole and leaked.

http://www.ehow.com/how_6944513_homemade-crampons.html LOL.
http://www.skyrunner.com/screwshoe.htm

By mid-May, if you encounter any frozen patches of trail it will most likely be on the upper reaches of the North Kaibab. Snow melt and mule stuff can refreeze if the temp dips. As Liz mentioned, hiker and mule traffic will camoflague some of these ice patches under trail mud and gook. During early spring, this happens along the SK between Ooh-Aah Pont and Cedar Ridge. There are several switchbacks that are tucked away out of direct sunlight and will keep their icy surprise waiting---these should be thawed by mid-May. Just read the trail out in front as you walk---look for butt cheek imprints from those who went before you. On the BA, Kolb seep leaks out onto the trail a short distance from the Rim---it too can freeze and be camoflagued. This stays slippery even during the summer as muck and poop stays slick and damp.

Check the weather report before you leave. Ask the Rangers for trail conditons before you begin hiking. The General Store in Canyon Village usually carries the YakTrak traction devices. They used to rent more expensive gear, including crampons. Since you are showing up as the winter season is coming to a close, call ahead if you plan to rent or buy upon arrival. The backcounrty Ranger station on the South Rim used to sell the YakTrak---not sure if they are still doing this.

Besides the concern with traction devices, be sure to carry the rangew of gear and clothing in your vehicle to keep you warm should you encounter winter temps on the North Rim. You can make your gear selection right before starting---with a greater chance of selecting the necessary gear and not underpacking or overpacking.
Here's the 'average' temps for South Rim, Phantom, North Rim. http://www.grandcanyontreks.org/preciptemps.htm

[Kwai Chang]

OK - weather wise i think I pretty much have the picture painted fairly clearly. Plan for everything expect nothing. Since this was my plan to begin with - I am gold. My hiking bud has other ideas - he is gonna bum out!!! Oh well - hopefully after he reads these threads he will understand.

One thing I am confused on is the Mules on SK. I was under the impression that due to the trail work the mules were at best eliminated at worst minimized. Am I incorrect in this assumption? I fully expect the Mule goo on NK and BA.

Liz - this is my first adventure below the rim - I purposely planned for the corridors to see what this whole deal has in store for me. I am somewhat "mule like" and have been doing some pretty intensive cardio training that blows my wife's mind. I have dropped about 20lbs since January when I started so at the very least I will have a few less pounds to carry with me for the adventure. I am less worried about myself and more worried about my buddy who struggled a bit on Bear mtn in Sedona. I went up that like a shot - spent more time taking pictures than I did actual hiking and I did it in February when there were certain lil ice patches that made for interesting climbing - no traction nor crampons and I almost wussed out but forged ahead - well worth it! Now I fully realize that Bear is more than likely 1/3 of a hike of any of the corridor trails but it was the bug that bit me......from there I KNEW I needed to hike the Canyon.

The hook is set - I am looking forward to this like nothing else - in fact the very first book I bought upon my return back home was "Death in the Grand Canyon". Since I am outside of the age demographic of likely candidates to "punch my ticket" I feel relieved and am SUPER looking forward to this......I am not one to wish time away but DANG it May 13th will not get here soon enough for me!

Does anyone know what happens if there is a super freak snowstorm and my reservations for lodging on the North side are therefore canceled what I do other than suck it up and hunker down?

I tried like mad to get 2 days @ Phantom - DANG! Like trying to win the freaking lotto!!!!

At any rate - again - many thanks to all of you who have chimed in - specially you Canyonram - you are chock full of useful info for a novice like me.

[azbackpackr]

You may not see the mules on the SK, but that is the trail they use to resupply Phantom Ranch and the trailworkers as well.

I did 8 backpacking trips in Canyon, on different trails (starting in '93 at age 40), before I ever even saw either BA or SK. I also resist the "R2R-in-one-day" fad, just on stubborn principle. That being said, it is probably wiser to start with Corridor trails. I'm stubborn, though. So was the Scoutmaster who I started hiking the Canyon with. He just flat refused to hike the Corridor with the Scouts. So we took them on Bill Hall, New Hance, Grandview, Hermit, etc.

[Dschur]

The first weekend that the canyon opens on the north side is a crazy weekend... as the last couple of weekends in Oct. those are the hardest to get reservations as well as permits it is the Offical weekend of the Rim to Rimmers..and will be scores of them on the trail.. If you do have reservations at the lodge (I don't know about the camp ground ) not sure what would happen if it was too much snow... but make sure if you want to eat at the lodge to call ahead and make dinner reservations as soon as possible
(928) 645-6865: January 1st through April 15th

(928) 638-2611: May 11th through October 14th

or you will be not having dinner in the lodge they do have the cafe or groceries at the general store...

[Canyonram]

Hi Kwai,

Congratulations on getting into physical shape for your Canyon trip (lose a few pounds for me). You are planning an extreme hike for a first-time Canyon trip. If I recall correctly, you are going down the SK, one-or-two nights at Phantom, up the NK to stay at the lodge, down the NK and another night at Phantom, back to the South Rim via the Bright Angel. This is a Rim-2-Rim-2-Rim (R2R2R) hike and will cover 50+ miles.(I checked on your orginal agenda: "My question is this - for a 6 day hike - Down SK, PR for 1 nite - up NK - stay there for 3 nites with a bunch of hikes down and back while there and then down NK and up BA - what kind of footware would you recommend.") That is an advanced agenda for even experienced Canyon hikers. From your description, I'm not certain if you are camping each night OR are you going to stay at Phantom and the North Rim lodge? I'm going to guess that you are staying at the lodging accomodations and have not pulled a camping permit----the Backcountry office would most likely challenge your plan based on your first time hike. You have some long days in there----from Phantom to the North Rim is about 14 miles (add another mile if you can't hitch a ride to the lodge) with about a mile in elevation change. In mid-May, there will be about 13-14 hours of daylight with light muted within the Inner Canyon much sooner. There is a good chance that attempting that uphill hike in one stretch is going to have you approaching the North Rim after dark (based on 1 mile per hour) with cool-to-cold weather conditions. Once you hit the trailhead, you still have about a mile walk to get to the North Rim Lodge.

Of bigger concern is the conditioning of your hiking partner. If he got gassed on Bear Mtn in Sedona, he'll struggle with the 50 miles in the Canyon. The Bear Mtn. hike is a 5 mile loop with an elevation change of 1800 feet. If you wish to use Bear Mtn. as your calibration point, you would have to do that loop three times in a single day to approach the same conditions you are proposing with your Phantom Ranch to the North Rim hike. That is still only 15 miles out of the proposed 50---in other words, both you and your partner will need the conditioning to handle Bear Mtn. 10 times in 4 days.

Even if you are in great physical shape, you are only going to go as far as your hiking partner----unless you want to abandon him on the trail in order to get to that dinner reservation! We'll look for him on "I Shouldn't be Alive.' A good first hike is to go down the SK, spend a night at the river, then back up the BA. This hike introduces you to several of the more common Inner Canyon sites. This is app. 17 miles. Once you and your partner get calibrated to the Canyon via this hike, then you can start planning those longer adventures.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/u ... ochure.pdf

The next longer option is to do a R2R by taking the TransCanyon Shuttle to the North Rim, spend the night, hike down the 14 miles of the NK to the River, spend the night at Phantom Ranch, then back up either the SK (no water along the trail!) or up the BA. During the hot months, the recommendation is to break up the NK to the River and spend a night camping at Cottonwood campground. In summer, the Inner Canyon is very hot and at lower section of the trail, known as 'The Box' is an oven.
The TransCanyon Shuttle costs $80 leaving the South Rim to the North Rim---you leave your vehicle parked in the Backcountry Office parking lot on the South Rim.

http://www.trans-canyonshuttle.com/

If you want to continue with your current plans, be sure to have an 'ABORT' option already worked out between you and your partner. Make an agreement ahead of time if one person needs to ABORT, there is no debate. The 7.5 mile hike down the SK will do people in if they get blisters or overwork the leg muscles by lunging forward while hiking down. Know the early warning signs for blister formation, take a 15 minute break app. every hour on the way down, stay aerobic to prevent lactic acid build-up and painful leg muscles. After the night at Phantom, make the ABORT decision---if you turn around, you have 9.5 miles via the Bright Angel or 7.5 via the SK (no water!). If you continue up the NK, you are both committing to an additional 40 miles and trying to get up the 15 miles to the North Rim before dark. The trail is well-traveled---but can be a challenge when you have never seen it and are gassed. If you are not going with full gear and self-contained---be alert to getting stuck out on the trail without warm clothing, etc.

You mention that you are going to stay on the North Rim for three days and do hikes from there. There is really only one Inner Canyon trail that is within walking distance and convenient to the lodge---the NK. The other Inner Canyon trailheads from the North Rim require transportation and time to reach. The orignial North Rim BA is accessible but is not maintained and not recommended for a first hike. The other hikes from the lodge are all Rim trails, great in summer when the Canyon is dangerously hot. If you have 6 days at the Canyon, you can stage some dayhikes from the South Rim that will give you plenty to do. Good dayhikes are to go down Hermit Rest trail over to Dripping Springs, down Grandview to Horsehoe Mesa, down the Tanner Trail to 'Stegasorus Rocks'---these trails are not maintained, and you will need to provide water for Grandview and Tanner and a method to treat water from either Santa Maria Springs or Dripping Springs along the Grandview.

If you spend the night at the North Rim, you still have the 'ABORT' option if the remaining R2R is going to be too severe. The TransCanyon shuttle driver spends the night at the North Rim and the shuttle leaves for the South Rim at 7 am---call ahead if you need a ride back to the South Rim. As Dschur has pointed out, May is a crazy month for R2R hikers and long-distance extreme runners anxious to get their 'Canyon Fix' by doing the hike/run when then Inner Canyon is still bearable. The shuttle bus back to the South Rim normally doesn't have the same passenger count since most hikers enter the Canyon via the NK, not exit via the NK.

Your first hike should be a satisfying adventure and not a death march. If you come up with a hike that allows you both to suceed, it will go a long way to bond your friendship. The reverse can also be true---if either one of you gets overwhelmed, it runs the risk or tainting or ruining a friendship. Once you get the Corridor trails under your backpacking belt, you'll both use that success and good experience and be gung-ho for the other trails and loop hikes---and a long love affair with the Canyon.

[Kwai Chang]

Howdy Canyon - I just shared this with my hiking buddy - hopefully it scares the crap out of him!!

Many many thanks for all the wisdom you have imparted so far - it is invaluable. Thanks also for this note - I like the "Abort" idea - I have no worries about me - I can walk forever and a day and still be OK - I am fully prepared for all the Grand Lady beast can throw my way. As you said I need to enjoy it and I know I will.

My plan of record for right now is this;
Arrive in Phoenix on the 13th and drive to Flag, spend the nite there and then get up early and drive to the Canyon and do the Dripping Springs hike as a "how do you do nice to meet you" hike - should be enough to warm us up and give us both a small idea of what we have to look forward too. I am not roughing it by any means and this was the plan all along to allow for less to carry and to ensure we enjoy it so we are spending the 14th in Maswik. Bright and early we will take the shuttle to SK trailhead and begin the descent. Since he is a professional photographer he will be taking pixs like no tomorrow so it will be a slow steady shuffle down the SK. At the bottom we will stay at Phantom for the nite - get up and then head up the NK. Then we stay at the North Rim Lodge for three nites - what we are hoping for - well what my bud is hoping for is that we are going to get a cancellation for the third nite we are supposed to in the NR Lodge and exchange that for a nite back down at Phantom. Hopefully it will be there for him and if I can get a nite that would be cool too. I really want to do this rim to rim deal. I know I know I am a stubborn fool. He does too but again - he needs to get the conditioning down which to his credit he is working on. We plan on walking up the BA trail and after we exit the Grand Lady and wistfully say our goodbyes we are heading right down the street to a hotel that has a hot tub which we will plant our fannies in until they literally come in and carry us out. Massive amount of tequila and vodka will be consumed. Then we will drive down to Flag the next morning and hang out in town for a few days - depending on how we feel we might try to knock down some Sedona hikes - Wilson Mtn comes to mind which is gonna be like playing in a sand box after what we just did!!!

Yup it is extreme but since we live on the east coast, are not getting any younger and we do not get to play in the Canyon like all of you, that I must say I envy ya'll like you can not imagine. If all goes to plan then the next time (2012) we will mix in some camping and start to trace out some of Harvey's easier routes and discover more of the Grand Lady. Like I said in a previous note - the hook is set - I do not intend to miss out on this at all. One thing I would like to throw into the bucket list is Angel's Landing - but that is a whole nuther thread for another day.

Thanks again for your input - I feel like I have a whole new crop of friends out in AZ!!

[autumnstars]

Bright and early we will take the shuttle to SK trailhead and begin the descent. Since he is a professional photographer he will be taking pixs like no tomorrow so it will be a slow steady shuffle down the SK.

You may already be aware, but there is a hiker's shuttle that leaves from the backcountry office (which is super close to Maswik) shortly after 5am and 6am. This shuttle doesn't make all the stops, instead going almost straight to the South Kaibab trailhead. This will help give you more time for all those pictures!

[Canyonram]

Hi Kwai---Looks like you are going to stick with your 'Ironman' agenda. The dayhike down the Hermit and over to Dripping Springs is a good calibration roundtrip hike of about 6.5 miles. It's one last check to verify your equipment, water use, conditioning, boot fit and blisters, etc. Since you are getting to the Canyon after a night in Flag, you might want to stop by the Backcountry office and get the password combination for the gate that blocks Hermit Rest road. As the tourist vistation increases beginning in March, that road is closed to routine car traffic to free the roadway for the shuttle buses. Let them know you want to do a dayhike down Hermit and you will be able to drive out to the trailhead in your personal vehicle instead of taking the shuttle bus. This can save time on the way out and will also take the pressure off for getting back to the trailhead before that last park shuttlebus leaves (usually 30 minutes after sunset). Your car will be at the trailhead instead of in the Maswik parking lot.

As to going for a R2R2R, I personally don't hike for speed and distance. I go into the Canyon to get away from the enforced schedules and deadlines---I hike like a turtle and make frequent stops to observe wildlife, geology, take photos, and relax. The last time I did a R2R was with a friend and his two pre-teen children. It was their first hike at the Canyon and our agenda was to squeeze in as much fun as we could. I wanted to hike based on the physical abilities of the kids---youngsters tend to crash hard and without much warning if pushed too hard in the Canyon. We spent 5 days to go from the North Rim to the South and camped at the North Rim on night one, down to Cottonwood, Bright Angel campground, Indian Gardens, and out on the fifth day. We had a blast and hit every Indian ruin, waterfall, counted fossils, bighorns & collared lizards, etc. took tons of photos, lounged in Bright Angel creek, went to the Ranger talk, counted the night stars in the Milky Way, looked for rattlesnakes and scorpions with our flashlight, and discovered that John's daughter was an excellant artist---her drawing of a California Condor perched on the iron railing at Plateau Point overlook is above my writing desk---her gift to me for the hike. I always try to be the last person out on a hike even with kids---that means I am the winner because I spent the most time IN the Canyon (it also allows those with fragile egos who always got picked last for PE volleyball to not be the last one once again).

That said, perhaps there are others on the forum who can provide you with info regarding ultra-marathon hikes. I did a quick Internet search on 'Hiking Grand Canyon Rim-to-Rim' and found numerous sites and trail reports. A good number detailed their physical conditioning done prior to making their hike. I found one ultra-marathon hiker who had 100 deg. temps at Cedar Ridge on May 29th and another that had photos of snow piled along the trailhead at the North Rim in the middle of May!

There are aspects of the Canyon that you will most likely not be able to prepare for. The South Rim is at roughly 7,000 feet elevation and the North at 8,000. If you are coming from the East coast and near sea-level, be alert to the effects of altitude change---headaches, shortness of breath on exertion, dizzyness. Also, the low humidity at the Canyon fools those who monitor their fluid intake needs by how much they sweat. The low humidity will literally wisk away your sweat and you may not replenish if you normally use your sweaty clothing as your signal as to when you should drink. The air at the Canyon is thinner due to the altitude---and with less pollution (compared to the East Coast) with greater possibility for sunburn as you are exposed to UV. A lot of people associate 'sunburn' with going to the beach in summer---UV index is separate from ambient air temps and you can earn a sunburn on winter days at the Canyon without sunblock.

You mentioned picking up a copy of 'Death at the Canyon.' One of the worst combinations leading to bad results is too much testorone combined with overly amibitious hiking agendas---one reason that young males are often the victims needing Search-and-Rescue. I guess the goal is to match your mental preparation & physical abilities to your ambition. You're good to go when you can push your personal envelope close, but not too far. If not, you earn your own paragraph in future updates of the book, Unfortunatley most don't know their limits and when they are pushing too far.

The Canyon will allow you almost any kind of adventure that you seek from the ultimate physical challenge to capturing a photo of a Canyon wren or bighorn sheep (or a pencil sketch of a California condor). It is also one place that will allow you to either fail or succeed based on the integrity of your preparation with responsibility for your health and well-being in your own hands. That is almost non-existent now in our modern world of creature comforts and lawyers. So, get informed for the kind of hike you want to make and put in the work to match your mental and physical stamina to that hike. Maybe next Canyon visit you will have time to try the 'Turtle' agenda for a R2R. LOL

[Kwai Chang]

Canyonram - I always enjoy reading your posts.

Yeah the Ironman testosterone will be kicking thats for sure. I truly believe that I will be 110% ready for this hike. I have read more info than I can shake a stick at bout hiking the Canyon. My friends now call me the Canyon expert and I have yet to set foot below the rim! I shared your previous post to my buddy - he, my wife and I are going to meet up in Key West in several weeks. We will discuss the various aspects of our adventure and your excellent advice of the ABORT idea. He is slightly worried but like you said we have some calibration going on here to assess our abilities so that should allow us to make intelligent decisions. In addition that that we have options along the way to prevent the Bataan death march. Besides if the Phantom deal for the last nite comes through this will all be moot. No way I wanna have a paragraph dedicated to me!! Or him for that matter!

I like the Turtle idea - like I said before - next time we will do the whole camping thing and exploring more and taking more time for better images and what not. This time we have our agenda - AND a plan for contingencies. One thing come to mind right now - The Box - how long is The Box? Typically how long would the average hiker spend from entering to exit. Is it a dramatic entrance and exit or just a subtle segue into and out of it?

Sounds like you made out pretty well on your turtle visit - artwork is truly priceless.

Thanks again - I will look forward to updating everyone will our results - hopefully I will not bore people to tears!

[Canyonram]

The Box: This is a section of trail between Phantom Ranch and Ribbon Falls as you travel up the North Kaibab toward the North Rim. The walls of Bright Angel Canyon narrow into a slot and close in to form "The Box". This is app. a 4 mile corridor with 1000'+ tall walls of vishnu schist and oroaster granite. Pretty spectacular to hike through with the creek flowing nearby. In summer this section can really be an oven as the heat collects and radiates. For those hiking from the North Rim, it is at the end of the hike before Phantom Ranch and can really hammer tired hikers. It is moderate hiking---and, as you probably realize by now, there really is no such thing as the 'average' Canyon hiker.

Not sure if you are into Geology but 'Hiking the Grand Canyon's Geology' by Lon Abbott & Terri Cook is a keeper. It describes the geological processes along several trails and why the Canyon looks the way it does today. A favorite---will make you a Turtle Hiker as you stop and study the landscape and cross reference the book.

The Grand Canyon Field Institute has the Butler and Myer lecture about Harvey Butchart here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDJU_ddJHw
The lecture was given to help sell their book 'Grand Obsession' about Harvey and other possessed Canyon hikers.

[joe bartels]

excellent book, excellent authors
http://hikearizona.com/books.php?REV=1&ID=77

I will look forward to updating everyone will our results - hopefully I will not bore people to tears!

bore would be highly impossible, look forward to that triplog!