Pushing Buttons

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joebartels
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Pushing Buttons

Post by joebartels » Dec 29 2005 1:36 pm

recent quote from another topic
Matt Hoffman wrote:Sorry if I pushed anyone's buttons.


The following isn't directed at Matt necessarily, I just wanted to expand on his thought.

I hope Matt and others push my buttons. It makes me think about (and in some cases redefine) who I am and what I'm about. We probably wouldn't learn much from a forum without opinions. There have been several posts, perhaps even my own :o , mentioning "you're never going to change anybody's mind". Well obviously not if they disagree. But perhaps with good reasoning a certain perspective may have been overlooked.

Now directly telling somebody their opinion is wrong is a whole nutha thing!
Hike Arizona it ROCKS!

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Davis2001r6
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Post by Davis2001r6 » Dec 29 2005 8:30 pm

Ok Joe, here is to pushing buttons?

I would still like to know why closing the Childs Power plant at Fossil Springs and restoring the area to it's natural state is a bad thing.

I still wonder why it is:
It was SUCH A SCAM. It is still such a scam, It will always and truly reign as one of the greatest scams in Arizona history. IF and ONLY IF you knew the whole story, maybe then you would realize how YOU and EVERYONE else in Arizona got literally "sold down the river" by the decision to shut down the CHilds hydro plant. Someday, (hopefully) some doctoral-level scholar will expose the "sell out" for what really happened and will then have all the footnotes and bibliographical resouces annotated within his/her document.
It's going to take that level of scholarship to prove to the Arizona people just how badly they got screwed on this "deal." It will forever reign in my mind as one of the worst public lands mgmt decisions EVER foisted upon an unsuspecting and immensely uninformed population. To say that this one was hideous and STUNK to High Heaven would be a colossal understantment.

If YOU, you who are reading this note, think that the deciscion to close this facility is "a good thing," as Martha would say, then we would have to say that YOU, who would think such a thing, would be deluded, delusional and defunct as a "critical thinker." If you think this is a good thing, our sympathies go out to you. Your mind is disfunctional. Good luck.
That was from this topic: http://www.hikearizona.com/dex2/viewtop ... sc&start=0

Of course I am one of those
Most of you are just a bunch of uninformed "urbanites" who have no clue about life in rural Arizona
people.

I would just like to find out why it is such a horrible thing that the plant was shut down.

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AZHikr4444
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Punching out the buttons

Post by AZHikr4444 » Dec 29 2005 9:48 pm

In response to joe bartels' reply:

Yep, I generally don't shy away from controversy (as anyone who followed the Cannabis Hemp Thread knows), however- I'll leave the Childs Power Plant issue alone. For now. At least until I can find out more about it and at least be able to pretend I know what I am talking about. Then maybe:
: rambo :

I am in total agreement with you, Joe. That is one thing that makes this forum so interesting- so many different people who mostly do not mind sharing their...mind. One thing that everyone should remember is that the written word is powerful in it's varied interpretations, and it is easy to take some things literally, when they may be meant as sarcastic or dryly witty. All these tapping fingers are playing different tunes, but they are all worthy of at least a good listen. Mature, intelligent people, as we all are, know that a respectful exchange of ideas should never disintegrate into name calling, direct and damaging language and general pissiness. Is that a word?

That being said, feed me generously of all your ideas, opinions, rants, raves, advice, etc etc and just know I'm gonna flavor it all with grain of salt.

Now..onto the topic at hand..

ding ding!

:gun:
A true outdoorsman, when treed by a bear, sits back and enjoys the view.

Lost? Hell, I ain't never been lost. But I have been a mite confused for a week or two.
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joebartels
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Post by joebartels » Dec 29 2005 11:19 pm

In response to davis2001r6's reply:
For myself those comments didn't offer good reasoning. Nor did they really push my buttons. It just seemed like "Childs" play. However I did find it more entaining than SNL in the past ten years!

I don't have a clue on the answer.
Hike Arizona it ROCKS!

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hikeaz
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Post by hikeaz » Dec 30 2005 7:35 am

joe bartels wrote: It just seemed like "Childs" play.
Image
kurt

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cficken
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Post by cficken » Dec 30 2005 8:02 am

Ok, don't mean to seem ignorant, but can someone tell me why closing of this power plant is such a big deal? :?:
Leave it in the past where it belongs

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Hoffmaster
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Post by Hoffmaster » Dec 30 2005 8:25 am

WOW!

A whole forum topic more or less devoted to one of MY comments! My fifteen minutes of fame have begun. :lol:

Joe, I agree with you and appreciate what you are saying. I for one, would never tell someone that their opinion is flat out wrong. An opinion can't be wrong by its very nature. Also, if I disagree with an opinion or comment, and I feel the need to say so, I will at least offer reasons as to why I disagree. Otherwise I'd be discounted as unintelligent!

Sometimes I come off a little more abrasive than I intend to. That is primarily what I was apologizing for.
"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals; I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants." A. Whitney Brown

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Davis2001r6
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Post by Davis2001r6 » Dec 30 2005 9:49 am

joe bartels wrote:In response to davis2001r6's reply:
For myself those comments didn't offer good reasoning. Nor did they really push my buttons. It just seemed like "Childs" play. However I did find it more entaining than SNL in the past ten years!

I don't have a clue on the answer.
Joe I'm the one who would like to find out the answers as to why is was such a horrible thing to shut it down. I'm not on the enlightened end of this topic, just an uninformed urbanite.

To me just the facts that the plant was no longer making money, would cost more to maintain than it could produce, they shut it down and are removing it, returning the area to it's natural state. Those all seem like good things to me.

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hikeaz
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Post by hikeaz » Dec 30 2005 9:57 am

cficken wrote:Ok, don't mean to seem ignorant, but can someone tell me why closing of this power plant is such a big deal? :?:
Here's a little history on the area
http://www.pinestrawhs.org/waterpower/slide01.htm

Here are some articles regarding the "de-commissioning" and the anticipated results...... as with anything, there are bound to be unanticipated consequences.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2 ... herty.html

http://www.paysonroundup.com/section/fr ... tory/17176

http://www.azgfd.gov/artman/publish/article_332.shtml

http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=5398
Last edited by hikeaz on Dec 30 2005 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
kurt

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cficken
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Post by cficken » Dec 30 2005 10:19 am

Thanks Ansel. :D
Leave it in the past where it belongs

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wetbeaverlover
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Post by wetbeaverlover » Dec 30 2005 11:02 am

"Most of you are just a bunch of uninformed "urbanites" who have no clue about life in rural Arizona " :o lol..I gotta admit..i got a chuckle out of this one. Guess if you don't share their opinions, you become "a bunch of unimformed urbanites who have no clue about life in rural arizona"..But never fear. Stay tuned, I'm sure the all knowing, all seeing "rural" education angels will fly down and liberate us from our ignorance any time now :wink:
Dan

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Al_HikesAZ
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Post by Al_HikesAZ » Dec 30 2005 2:31 pm

"Most of you are just a bunch of uninformed "urbanites" who have no clue about life in rural Arizona "

Reminds me of one of my favorite credos:

Before you disagree with someone, walk a mile in his shoes . . .

That way you are one mile away from him and you have his shoes! :badgrin:

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boxerjoey
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Re: Pushing Buttons

Post by boxerjoey » Jan 03 2006 12:18 am

joe bartels wrote:recent quote from another topic
Matt Hoffman wrote:Sorry if I pushed anyone's buttons.


Now directly telling somebody their opinion is wrong is a whole nutha thing!
With all due respect, why? Sometimes someone's opinion *is* wrong. If I contend the sun rises at 10am MST here in Arizona, that is a wrong opinion and I hope someone tells me my "opinion" is wrong. There are countless other examples. On some things, there is room for opinion (I like this picture; I dislike that picture). On others (does the earth revolve around the sun?) opinions are open to challenge and outright dismissal. We live in way too sensitive of a society if it is no longer ok to tell someone their opinion is wrong if it is indeed so.

The key is to be able to seperate those issues that are a matter of opinion and those that are a matter of fact. People are legendarily bad at this task :wink:

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joebartels
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Post by joebartels » Jan 03 2006 1:20 am

Seems if it's a fact then it wouldn't be an opinion.
Hike Arizona it ROCKS!

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Rodney
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Post by Rodney » Jan 03 2006 3:28 am

joe bartels wrote:Seems if it's a fact then it wouldn't be an opinion.
Is that a fact...or, an opinion? :D

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Post by HikingDawn » Jan 03 2006 9:09 am

deleted

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hikeaz
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Post by hikeaz » Jan 03 2006 9:13 am

joe bartels wrote:Seems if it's a fact then it wouldn't be an opinion.

Bingo!


Websters: "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof"
kurt

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Post by Abe » Jan 05 2006 4:21 am

No comment. :wink:
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boxerjoey
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Post by boxerjoey » Jan 06 2006 10:58 pm

In response to joe bartels' reply:

That's a sagacious statement only if you believe that two (or more) people will always agree as to what is an opinion and what is a fact. That is a tenuous presumption, because as I mentioned before, one person's "fact" is often anothers opinion and vice versa. Getting back to the original point you made about how someone better not tell you your opinion is wrong, I think that people should, in general, tell others when they think their opinion is wrong. That's the nature of interpersonal communication and scholarly debate. If all we ever did was act like others opinions are "off limits," then we'd never have a meaningful discussion about anything. Opinions are there to be challenged, debated, and openly discussed. To hang on to one with rigidity, ignoring all counter opinions around you, is to lead a life unchallenged.

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joebartels
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Post by joebartels » Jan 07 2006 9:57 pm

boxerjoey wrote:That's a sagacious statement only if you believe that two (or more) people will always agree as to what is an opinion and what is a fact. That is a tenuous presumption, because as I mentioned before, one person's "fact" is often anothers opinion and vice versa.

"One person's fact", sounds like a masked term for opinion, not a proven fact.
boxerjoey wrote:Getting back to the original point you made about how someone better not tell you your opinion is wrong...

That's not what I said.
I said "Now directly telling somebody their opinion is wrong is a whole nutha thing!"
Perhaps I should elaborate. I just feel people are more likely to get their point across by simply stating it. Accusing another person of being wrong tends to lead to things such as name calling and getting off subject. It's a shame we've lost great opportunities to hear opinions that might change our lives.
Hike Arizona it ROCKS!

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