Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

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azbackpackr
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Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by azbackpackr » Aug 12 2019 4:45 pm

This wil probably upset some people.

https://www.americancanyoneers.org/marb ... n-closure/
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chumley
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by chumley » Aug 12 2019 4:58 pm

@azbackpackr
Couldn't have happened soon enough.
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nonot
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by nonot » Aug 12 2019 10:37 pm

Uh, canyoneering was not closed at all, and if you read the article, it even says canyoneering is allowed if accessed from the other side of the river.

More accurate would be "Navajo tribe increases crackdown on illegal use of their land", since you have always needed a permit to camp or hike on their land.
http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php

Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
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chumley
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by chumley » Aug 12 2019 11:04 pm

@nonot Well technically I think it would be more accurate to say “Navajo Nation discontinues issuing recreation permits for hiking and canyoneering access on their sovereign land east of Marble Canyon.”

They’re not really “cracking down” on anything. They’ve decided to stop permitting something they used to permit.
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nonot
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by nonot » Aug 12 2019 11:40 pm

Sort of, but they still allow access to 2 of those canyons, so it isn't an outright closure. So you basically ask for a permit, and in select cases, you get denied.
http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php

Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!

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azbackpackr
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by azbackpackr » Aug 13 2019 4:03 am

Over-inflated headline. Very common in journalism. Got your attention, though! ;) Personally, I don't give a rat's tail about the topic. Just thought others might.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

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toddak
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by toddak » Aug 13 2019 5:25 am

Its always the knuckleheads who ruin it for everyone

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chumley
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by chumley » Aug 13 2019 7:44 am

I first learned of this at the end of May. The tribal official in the Cameron office said then that the changes are permanent. It's interesting that this CAC post is the only mention of it online yet (that I've seen). Neither the official Navajo Nation parks permit site nor the Bodaway-Gap chapter site make any mention of it (in fact, it says clearly that you can still get permits, though I know that to be no longer accurate). Hopefully the official online information is updated to reflect the change.

@toddak - your choice of language is far more polite than mine
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Jim_H
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by Jim_H » Aug 13 2019 8:46 am

This closure reportedly came about because the Bodaway-Gap chapter felt visitors to tribal lands were often not obtaining permits, were starting illegal campfires, were often getting stuck on rough roads requiring rescue, and were not generally treating the land the way they felt it should be treated.
Hmm, given the size of that mapped closure area, the low number of people living in the area and the tendency for residents to collect in villages and remain close to US 89, the extremely low numbers of what amounts to lower skill Tribal Police responsible for that region and their prioritization of calls related to traffic accidents that Arizona Highway Patrol won't deal with, domestic violence, alcohol intoxication, and other things which are common in and around the settlements and locations like Tuba City, I question the enforceability of this closure or it's efficacy. This is not to say I don't understand or support the rational, but I see the problem continuing and only the responsible people who respected the land and who did obtain a permit now being excluded.

In fact, I wonder, especially given the tendency for people from Arizona and other locations to carry fire arms, and the possibility of irate Navajos AKA locals confronting "trespassers" as happened to me numerous times while walking or riding my bike on well established dirt roads very close to my residence when I lived for that bizarre year in Kayenta, that there now is an increased risk of a violent conflict occurring. Perhaps not, as well. But as soon as I think of the reservation, I think of stuff like that.

After all, that place is as as backward and dysfunctional as Guatemala seems to be. Maybe I am unduly trashing Guatemala there. In the last month I lived in Kayenta, there were 4 people murdered in 1 weekend, and shortly after I left the daughter of a co-worker was murdered by being run over with a vehicle after she was raped by the "friend" who did it. People tried to break in to my house when I was in it, and I remember my neighbor who was the postmaster talking about how he would only answer the door after dark with his shot gun, if at all.

https://azdailysun.com/news/local/crime ... 070a2.html
https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/na ... an-7287413

Yes, there is a beauty to the plateau, and land, but why would you want to be out there after dark recreationally? Driving home from Utah last year seeing a tent pitched in the Junipers and maybe 100 feet off of US 160, I thought that those which are most likely European Tourists, are just asking for it. It isn't the Coconino NF. Frankly, I'm impressed that Todd hiked Black Mesa not too long ago, and I would be equally impressed if anyone else did anything out there in that nether region. That massive 3 hour obstruction between Arizona and Colorado/Utah/New Mexico. Keep in mind that well after I left Kayenta, I had some local coming on this website harassing my logs telling me to tell my friends (becuase all whites know all other whites) to stay off her lands and stay away from Black Mesa.
:o

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ddgrunning
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by ddgrunning » Aug 13 2019 4:00 pm

Jim_H wrote: I question the enforceability of this closure or it's efficacy.
Jim_H wrote:only the responsible people who respected the land and who did obtain a permit now being excluded.
I fear you are right on both counts.
chumley wrote:Couldn't have happened soon enough.
I suppose that's easier to say when you've already experienced the cool places to explore in the area. :-k For those of us who still have this area on our wish list, this is very sad news ... that came too soon! :(

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louie
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by louie » Aug 24 2019 5:05 pm

A link from savetheconfluence about the whole closure thing. Really bummed out by this. Love the LCR area.
https://savetheconfluence.com/news/nava ... sd6XgGKw_A
Not all who wander are lost...

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ddgrunning
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by ddgrunning » Aug 24 2019 7:49 pm

@louie
Interesting. On the bright side (for me, anyway), the article suggests that they may again start issuing permits (quote below). In the meantime, given that "lack of enforcement" is the issue, failing to issue permits seems very unlikely to keep the riff-raff out. Also interesting that the promoter of the ban appears poised to enjoy some financial gain from the decision ....
“We really don’t have any enforcement out there. People go out there, they camp and build fires, we would not know about it,” Begaye said. “We decided it’s best not to issue more permits. We are in the process of getting rangers in that area. Rangers who can watch camping sites and inspect permits that are issued.”

Begaye said rangers could be on duty by next spring, when the back-country permit program may be re-stated.

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joebartels
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by joebartels » Nov 12 2019 9:28 pm

link in original post states
2019-09-03
The closure now only affects the access to the Tatahatso Point area.
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louie
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by louie » Nov 12 2019 10:49 pm

@joebartels
Sweet! So if I’m reading that correctly Salt Trail and the LCR is back in play, correct?
Not all who wander are lost...

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joebartels
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by joebartels » Nov 12 2019 11:01 pm

@louie
In theory. I did not call to verify.
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e_allan4
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Re: Marble Canyon closed to canyoneering

Post by e_allan4 » Nov 13 2019 10:14 am

@Jim_H

Sorry you had to deal with all that Jim. I know what you're talking about when you mention people harassing for you for trespassing, I get that a lot myself, and here I'm a tribal member ha. And it's funny because if it's trust land then it is open to tribal members.

And our government is definitely backwards and very corrupt. But there are a few people there trying to make it better and make some positive changes.

I know of a hike that goes right under Navajo bridge and it might be another good spot to put in with a tube or small floatation device to float to the canyons down stream and explore them.

I know there is still litigation between the Navajo Nation and Park Service about where the Navajo Nation boundaries end. Navajo Nation says it ends at the edge of the water on the river, while the park service says it ends at the rim edge of the canyon. But I've heard that has basically been going no where so far, so that means anything below the rim line of the canyon is not within the Navajo Nation boundary.

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