For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

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Alston_Neal
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For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Alston_Neal »

Neat new graphics for the 100th anniversary.
http://repository.azgs.az.gov/sites/def ... le_v3b.pdf
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Canyonram
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

Love the info. Thanks.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Hansenaz »

@Alston_Neal
I like that too Alston even if everyone else thinks you're weird.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Alston_Neal »

@Hansenaz
The only ones who don't think I'm weird are the ones that haven't met or communicated with me......so there!
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by hikeaz »

The easy chair version of G.C. geology... [ image ]
Stacked on each side of the hearth is a collection of water-worn Colorado River rocks. The base of the fireplace consists of dark-colored Vishnu Schist. This granite-veined rock – dated at around 1.7 billion years old – forms the very basement of the North American continent. The next layer of rock represents the Grand Canyon Supergroup –sedimentary and volcanic rocks ranging in age from 800 million to 1.2 billion years old; their tilted appearance caused by the separation of ancient continents. Above the fireplace opening is a distinctive layer of flat-lying sedimentary rocks that give the Grand Canyon its “stairstep” appearance and date from half a million to 250 million years in age. Some of the youngest rocks are found at the top of the fireplace. That band of light-colored stone completes the geologic timeline of the Grand Canyon. Known as the Kaibab Formation, this limestone rock is a mere 270 million years old and is visible along much of the canyon’s rim.
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Canyonram
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

Image

@hikeaz At first glance of the Mary Colter fireplace in the Bright Angel Lodge, you'd swear the mason who laid the stones was drunk.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by big_load »

hikeaz wrote:The easy chair version of G.C. geology...
That's not nearly so hard to ascend.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by azbackpackr »

@Canyonram
I'm one who is suspicious of Mary Colter's claims to being an architect. It's more likely that Robert Raney designed BA Lodge, and its fireplace. Fred Shaw's book exposing Colter as a fraud is extremely well-researched, and so far, no one has come up with competing evidence that can withstand any kind of scrutiny.

https://www.route66news.com/2018/05/23/ ... tect-role/
https://www.amazon.com/False-Architect- ... B07CJRX2F5
http://architecturalobserver.com/grand- ... s-a-fraud/
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Canyonram
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

@big_load

Yep, those Devil Corkscrew switchbacks don't look so tough.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

@azbackpackr

Aww, gee. The next thing we’ll hear is that John Wesley Powell really had two arms and tucked one behind his back so he wouldn’t have to help row.

I guess I will have to stop cursing Colter every time I walk into ‘Hopi House’ and shatter my forehead on that ‘original’ Hopi doorway into the building. She didn’t design the building, she just arranged the furniture inside. I’ll thank her instead when I stumble into one of her chairs and mop the blood from my face.

Back in 1996 I did some consulting work with a husband/wife team who were looking to purchase La Posada in Winslow. The original ‘Colter’ design of the building was as a hotel stop for both train and later Rt. 66 travelers. Colter considered it her finest work as a designer and she had a hand in every detail of the construction and the furnishings. The building had been turned into offices for the railroad and then closed. The new owners wanted to restore the building and reopen as a hotel. They hired me to evaluate the property and how they would be able to meet State Codes for fire safety, food safety, etc. They wanted to preserve the original kitchen and dining room. I helped them apply for their AZ food license and get some ‘historical preservation’ exceptions to the modern code. While doing a tour, we opened up a large storage room that was full of Colter-designed interior furnishings. Many looked to be early Picasso sculptures—the new owner didn’t have a clue and told me he was going to get rid of them. I let him know he had a treasure trove of unique artwork. Don’t know what he did with them—I believe his wife is an artist and may have understood the find. I probably should have offered to load them in my truck and haul them away. . . for a minimal fee of course.

I don’t have any trouble with Colter ‘taking credit’ as being the architect of the many Grand Canyon buildings. She was a tough ole’ chain-smoking original and had plenty of input into the design. Imagine the grit to show up in 1900 Arizona and order a bunch of men around on a construction site. I guess it gets down to the definition of ‘architect.’ Colter did attend the ‘California School of Design’ from 1886 to 1891. Her attention to detail is enough to move her into the definition of ‘architect.’ Her buildings at the Canyon are credited with the ‘NPS Rustic’ as an motif for structures in our National Parks. Of course her structures are the forerunners of a Disneyland theme park. Desert View Watchtower—that the casual tourist thinks is an original Native American structure—was not universally hailed. “Naturalist Edwin McKee thought that it stuck out from the landscape like a sore thumb, and felt that the way the Fred Harvey Company called it an “Indian Watchtower” was misleading (Gerke, 2008).”

There are plenty of Grand Canyon legends beside Colter’s credentials that can be questioned. Probably one of the biggest is that Powell was the first through the Canyon via the River. Native Peoples lived in the Canyon for 20,000 years before Powell. At least one had to have fallen into the River and grabbed on a log and surf boarded it to the end. The Hopi story about Tiyo describes just such a journey—so we should attach his name to more than just Tiyo Point Trail and rename Powell Memorial the Tiyo Memorial.

Another is the myth that the Spanish first viewed the Inner Canyon at Desert View.
https://www.theartsjournal.org/index.ph ... e/view/782 (Need membership to log on).
We might have the beginning of a new thread?
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Alston_Neal
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Alston_Neal »

@Canyonram
The Powell bit was a good one. I enjoyed reading about your work with the then new owners of La Posada. They are also redoing the hotel in Las Vegas NM. We need more people like them. Oh and yes I've smacked my head also at Hopi House. Being in the Native art biz, running the Hopi House had always been a dream.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by azbackpackr »

@Canyonram @Alston_Neal @Hippy
I highly suggest you read Fred Shaw's book. The buildings at Grand Canyon, and elsewhere, did have architects. They have names. Robert Raney. Louis Curtiss. Charles Whittlesey. These people have living relatives and descendants who would like to see their work be recognized. It burns them that Colter gets credit for the architecture. The California School of Design did not teach architecture. Colter lied to journalists, after everyone else was dead, and took credit for the architecture. She didn't design a single building. She was an interior decorator.

I think I mentioned earlier that you would not believe me. No one believes this until they read the book, about a third of which is research. At one point there was a $10,000 reward for anyone who could provide contemporaneous evidence that Colter designed any buildings. Any buildings at all. Period. In fact, evidence was found that she could not draft or draw well at all.

Read the book. https://www.amazon.com/False-Architect- ... ikearizona
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

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azbackpackr wrote:I think I mentioned earlier that you would not believe me. No one believes this until they read the book, about a third of which is research. At one point there was a $10,000 reward for anyone who could provide contemporaneous evidence that Colter designed any buildings. Any buildings at all. Period. In fact, evidence was found that she could not draft or draw well at all.
Kinda like you see on Facebook today. False facts change true history. :M2C:
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by azbackpackr »

@SuperstitionGuy
Not sure what you're getting at. If someone spends three years doing research, and interviewing people, and looking at the records of architects, then I might want to consider that he has found something of value. Then there are all these other people, who want to believe what they've always believed. They won't read the book. They will tell you what they think, because that's what they've always thought. They're unwilling to entertain the idea that the actual truth might be somewhat different. The Park Service certainly doesn't want to have to change all of its signs, and kiosks and long-held myths. That would cost money and be embarrassing.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by chumley »

azbackpackr wrote: May 28 2020 3:43 pm there are all these other people, who want to believe what they've always believed. They won't read the book. They will tell you what they think, because that's what they've always thought. They're unwilling to entertain the idea that the actual truth might be somewhat different
Fantastic explanation of this phenomenon from the oatmeal. Well worth the time to read through it.
https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by hikeaz »

"It Ain’t What You Don’t Know That Gets You Into Trouble. It’s What You Know for Sure That Just Ain’t So"
- Could have been M. Twain... W. Rogers.. no one knows.
"The censorship method ... is that of handing the job over to some frail and erring mortal man, and making him omnipotent on the assumption that his official status will make him infallible and omniscient."
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Canyonram
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

@azbackpackr

I never said I didn't believe you regarding the accusation made by Fred Shaw . . . I said it didn't matter to me. The question is---how much time, effort, money, etc are you willing to devote to this 100+ year-old allegation of plagiarism? If your answer is little to none, then you fall in my category and it doesn't matter to you as well. If you are really angry, have at it and give the NPS some hell to investigate and change.

I haven't read the Shaw book but just the review you provided. I will now out of curiosity about the Canyon.

It may just get back to who is grabbing credit for a collaborative effort. Colter may have claimed credit because she was the lead person on a team as hired by Fred Harvey??? Colter had an interest in Native American art and symbols going back to childhood---you can see the influence in the design of Desert View Watchtower. She did travel the SW and studied the ruins for ideas. Now, did she calculate the stress load on the interior steel frame that went up and write up the specs for the construction? It's no difference than a pop singer going into the studio with three chords and a few lyrics who has an army of professional musicians and sound engineers and puts out his album. Guess whose name is credited as the songwriter.

The NPS Grand Canyon Flikr has some photo collections including a few of Colter's drawings

https://www.flickr.com/photos/grand_can ... 7106960128

The one architectural design is for a proposed building at Indian Gardens and signed by M.E.J. C. In the book review of the Shaw book, the reviewer points out that the signature doesn't match the rest of the font used in the drawing proper for the design Colter' is claiming for herself. That's not proof that she didn't do the design and is common for architects to sign in this fashion---it distinguishes the signature from the rest of the drawing. The drawing looks like a legitimate architectural design awaiting the rest of the team to jump on and develop.

And, even if she did poach the credit, it adds to her legend as a tough old rascal and one of the unique characters in the Canyon's history. She fooled a bunch of us----including me. LOL.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by azbackpackr »

@Canyonram
I'm glad you're willing to check it out. Fred Shaw is also very approachable via Facebook or email. As for the discrepancy in the signature, Shaw goes into quite a lot of detail explaining his reasoning why this is plagiarism. He had a whole stack of architectural drawings by this particular architect who used a particular style of very fancy calligraphy. So he goes into detail about this in the book.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

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@chumley
Thanks, I'll check it out.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by azbackpackr »

@chumley
That's an interesting way to present that topic. Thanks for posting it
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
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