For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

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Alston_Neal
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For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Alston_Neal »

Neat new graphics for the 100th anniversary.
http://repository.azgs.az.gov/sites/def ... le_v3b.pdf
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by chumley »

@azbackpackr
I found it to be thought-provoking. I'm not sure how many people have built their core belief system on Mary Colter as master architect, but interesting nonetheless!
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Canyonram
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

Recent PHD by Barbara Ann Matusik "THE PHENOMENA OF MARY ELIZABETH JANE COLTER: CREATING AN ARCHITECTURAL SENSE OF PLACE ON GRAND CANYON"
Believe this was part of her presentation at the GC Historical Society meeting in 2016.

Check out her letter to Ed McKee regarding the construction of the BA Fireplace on page. 174

https://ufdc.ufl.edu/UFE0051057/00001
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by azbackpackr »

@Canyonram
I'll be interested to hear what you have to say after you read Fred Shaw's book regarding the references in this grad student's thesis.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by SuperstitionGuy »

@azbackpackr
I support you and my reference to Facebook was a dig into it being "Falsebook". I.E. it's full of excrement!
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by azbackpackr »

@chumley
I have to admit that seeing a shining icon possibly come crashing down brings out the rebel in me. As for belief systems, I studied with a guru for 10 years when I was very young whose main focus was teaching his students that knowledge and experience are more important than belief and faith. Of course, that was a belief system in and of itself. But it did make you think.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by big_load »

Alston_Neal wrote: May 28 2020 11:10 am @Canyonram
The Powell bit was a good one. I enjoyed reading about your work with the then new owners of La Posada. They are also redoing the hotel in Las Vegas NM. We need more people like them. Oh and yes I've smacked my head also at Hopi House. Being in the Native art biz, running the Hopi House had always been a dream.
I enjoy poking around in there, even if they think I'm going to rob the place. For some reason, the objects that attract me are often much more valuable than the ones that don't.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

@Alston_Neal
The only advantage Hopi House has over your operation is the view. Your selection and quality is fantastic and matches anything at the Canyon or in Flag.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by LosDosSloFolks »

@Canyonram
I've found Alston's inventory and selection of rubber tomahawks to be wanting.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

@azbackpackr
azbackpackr wrote:I'll be interested to hear what you have to say after you read Fred Shaw's book regarding the references in this grad student's thesis.
I’m about half-way through the Shaw book. So far, I don’t see any convincing evidence that any shots were fired from the grassy knoll. I’m more inclined at this point to go with the evaluation of Colter’s work as described in the Matusik thesis and GC Historical Society presentation from 2016 and 2017 as being closer to the truth.

Here’s the link again: https://ufdc.ufl.edu/UFE0051057/00001

See ‘Appendix A: List of M. E. J. Colter Buildings & Interior Designs’ beginning on pg 171

Shaw alludes to Colter consulting with Charles Whittlesey during construction of El Tovar in regards to the interior design. His name is still the one attached to El Tovar–I’ve never seen any literature or document that has Colter as claiming to be architect of the building itself. The contrast between the El Tovar and the structures like Hermit’s Rest and Desert View watchtower is revealing. El Tovar was meant to mimic a European ski resort. The GC structures credited to Colter by Matusik as architect were based on her philosophy that “a building should grow out of its setting, embodying the history and flavor of the location. It should belong to its environment as though indigenous to that spot” (Grattan, 1980, p. 59). Colter’s designs were not considered until she had thought out its “history” adding to the sense of place. That philosophy is much different than dropping a Swiss Alp ski resort 20 feet from the South Rim.

Hermit Rest is a good example—the building was meant to mimic “a dwelling constructed by an untrained mountain man (Louie Boucher) using the natural timber and boulders of the area.” Boucher lived near Dripping Springs off the Hermit Rest Trail—even the fireplace in Hermit Rest mimics the geology of Dripping Springs—with added soot to age the rocks. That’s the genius and the meticulous detail that marks the structure as something with the Colter touch—you see it in her other structures as well. The design is unique and outside the motif and creative process of the other ‘classically’ trained architects who also worked for Fred Harvey. It is also probably a big reason Fred Harvey Company hired her to be their chief architect—she was giving them the unique vision for their properties.

Consider Architect Robert Raney. Shaw gives him the credit for many of the ‘Colter’ GC structures. Raney’s Wikipedia page looks as if it has been written by or added to by a Shaw supporter---he is already given credit as architect in this narrative! I could not find any biographical evidence about Raney that would support the idea that he was an architect tuned into the Native culture and SW history that would provide the creative inspiration to come up with a structure that mimics a mountain man’s cave retreat or a Mesa Verde influenced Watchtower. His work before Fred Harvey were ‘classic’ structures without evidence of the Colter inspired creative touch. Colter does have that connection and interest with Native culture and art going back to childhood. As far as I can tell, the artistic inspirations evident at GC belong to Colter.

I read Colter’s own short career resume—the basis for the assertion that she co-opted credit from Raney—and don’t really see that she claimed architectural credit (although implied). It may well be that it was later researchers who translated Colter’s resume into a Colter claim as sole architect. Note on pg. 2 she gives credit to Whittelsey as the architect of El Tovar—eliminating one of Shaw’s points (where’s my $10,000 reward). She claims she ‘designed and superintended the building of all Fred Harvey hotels and union station facilities.” (from 1910 to 1948). She also states that she was ‘responsible’ for the GC structures in question. That may be entirely correct and does not co-opt or deny any team participation. That’s the exact language one uses to describe their job duties when they supervise. The chief architect/designers name goes on the project even though there are other contributors. How many have used that same language on their resume in describing how great we are in order to get hired? How many of us have done the lion’s share of work on a team project only to have the senior staff person sign off on authorship? LOL. You can view the resume here:

Mary E. J. Colter, "Autobiographical Summary Furnished by Colter to the Fred Harvey Company," 1952, Fred Harvey Company Collection, Heard Museum, Phoenix, Arizona

http://cdm262401.cdmhost.com/cdm/ref/co ... ll4/id/447

Perhaps more acknowledgment does need to go to all of the architects who were employed at the time by Fred Harvey Company if they were part of the team and under Colter’s supervision. But that doesn’t mean we go 180 and take all credit away from Colter and assign the credit and creative inspiration to an architect under her supervision. At least that’s my opinion at point in time.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

LosDosSloFolks wrote:I've found Alston's inventory and selection of rubber tomahawks to be wanting.
Perhaps sales staff hide them behind the counter in anticipation of a visit by big load.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by outdoor_lover »

Just an FYI for those not in the know. @LosDosSloFolks is kidding about @Alston_Neal and his shop inventory. His Shop is amazing and if you haven't been there, you should go.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by CannondaleKid »

LosDosSloFolks wrote:I've found Alston's inventory and selection of rubber tomahawks to be wanting.
As in wanting to be purchased? :roll:
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Alston_Neal »

@outdoor_lover
Thanks for the kind words and yes I'm feeling the love bwahahahaaaa!!!!
LosDosSloFolks, I have your rubber tomahawk right here buddy.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by big_load »

Canyonram wrote: May 29 2020 11:28 am
LosDosSloFolks wrote:I've found Alston's inventory and selection of rubber tomahawks to be wanting.
Perhaps sales staff hide them behind the counter in anticipation of a visit by big load.
A few years ago, an antique dealer in Bisbee put a piece in his safe because he saw me eyeballing it the day before. He told me because I asked him where it went.

This thread reminded me that the last time I visited Hopi house was at the end of March last year, after coming up Grandview trail at the end of 110 miles in the Canyon. I was so out of it I hardly remember being there, but dinner at El Tovar was fantastic, even though it was the quietest meal of the trip.

And a visit to Alston is always worthwhile.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Alston_Neal »

big_load wrote:And a visit to Alston is always worthwhile.
That right there is truth. I can be found in the Maricopas and up above Camp Verde during the warmer times. Paypal is always excepted.
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by rcorfman »

Alston_Neal wrote:Paypal is always excepted.
and life takes Visa
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Hippy »

@Canyonram
Colter was a fraud. The evidence is mind numbing. I've been guiding at Grand Canyon since 2013 and all anyone ever talked about was what a badazz Colter was. I hated her stories. They seemed so fake and too good to be true. I only spoke of her if someone asked.
I'm a firm supporter of Shaw's book.

Find his page on Facebook (False Architect) send him a message tell him Haley sent you, request a free copy of his book and he'll send you one. FREE no charge.

He isn't in this to make money, he's in this to make people aware of the truth.
Anyway, he has like 60 pages of sources and we can view them all ourselves and what I've seen is pretty hard evidence to deny. Unfortunately the National Park Service has invested a lot of money in supporting "strong female characters"....that's all Colter was, a character. She was a real person who stole other people's work and became a character in a story. It will take a long long time for the NPS to get it's act together regarding Colter. Maybe I'll work on that while I'm wearing my flat hat ;)
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

@Hippy

Colter was a fraud. The evidence is mind-numbing. I've been guiding at Grand Canyon since 2013 and all anyone ever talked about was what a badazz Colter was. I hated her stories. They seemed so fake and too good to be true. I only spoke of her if someone asked.
I'm a firm supporter of Shaw's book.

Find his page on Facebook (False Architect) send him a message tell him Haley sent you, request a free copy of his book and he'll send you one. FREE no charge.

He isn't in this to make money, he's in this to make people aware of the truth.
Anyway, he has like 60 pages of sources and we can view them all ourselves and what I've seen is pretty hard evidence to deny. Unfortunately the National Park Service has invested a lot of money in supporting "strong female characters"....that's all Colter was, a character. She was a real person who stole other people's work and became a character in a story. It will take a long long time for the NPS to get it's act together regarding Colter. Maybe I'll work on that while I'm wearing my flat hat ;)

Yo Hippy,

Thanks for posting regarding Colter. Looked to me like the topic ledged out with no response from anyone to my posting of May 29.

I’ll be glad to engage on the issue provided you give a response to the points I made. I’d like to see that you read my ideas—for example, I’ve already read the full book (I mentioned I was half-way through) so there is no need for me to connect with Mr. Shaw to seek out a free copy. I would not expect an author to provide me with a free copy—he deserves to be paid for his efforts.

In your first paragraph, you express your anger/hostility/jealousy toward Colter. I don’t consider your emotional response toward her as evidence that would convince me that she was a fraud. It is only evidence that you get angry at someone dead since 1958.

You mention that the evidence that is “mind-numbing.” To mount a convincing argument, first un-numb your mind. Then provide what you think is evidence that makes the case. Simply stating that you are a firm supporter of Shaw convinces me that you are a firm supporter of Shaw but doesn’t move the needle on whether or not you’ll convert me.

If Mr. Shaw is not interested in making money, he would post his e-book on Amazon for a lot less than the $12.95 cost. (I know because I price out my own works at the minimum cost and currently have several titles on Amazon at the bare minimum to cover hard-copy publication. I have e-books about the Canyon and a novel for ‘Free to Read with Amazon Prime’)

You mention 60 pages of references. For those to have any standing, we’d need to read the original sources and vet how those references are being used to support the Fraud allegation. Simply having a long list of references is not enough. There are ‘scientists’ who refute climate change—their papers have a long list of references. For many years, the tobacco industry issued ‘scientific’ studies showing no ill effects or positive benefits from smoking with a long list of studies/references to support the claim. Ditto with the sugar industry who touted the benefits of eating a high-sugar diet. We need to evaluate the references and how they were used. No points for simply having a long list of references and it will not necessarily qualify as ‘hard evidence.’

(1) That is one reason why I stated that I didn’t hear any shots fired from the grassy knoll. Colter provided a two-page summary/resume of her career (see the link I provided May 29). In that resume she states that she worked as an interior designer for the El Tovar—she did not take credit as the architect. Yet that is one of Mr. Shaw’s first assertions of fraud that she did.

(2) What evidence can you provide that the other architects attached to the Canyon’s structures had the artistic insight for Native Cultures and storytelling that Colter had even early on in life? I did a web search to find the type of structures others designed before coming to work under Colter/Fred Harvey and they were standard issue designs—nothing unique beyond the current design motif.

If you don’t have a response for (1) and (2)—we have ledged out. You’ll just have to continue to be angry/hostile/jealous toward Colter on your own (excuse me, with backpacker, maybe those who have 'liked' your post). But I will not jump off trying to land in the river. I took the time to provide my thinking, your turn to rebut.

I contacted a friend who worked at the Canyon as a Historian and asked him to join the discussion. He spent his whole career working for Fred Harvey and then Xanterra. (Yep, Fred Harvey hired their own Interpretive Historians to guide guests). So far, he has not joined the list so I’ll not reveal his name. He did design the Bright Angel History room and is responsible for many of the Harvey Girl and Fred Harvey items gathered in the display cases. He is interested in reading the Shaw book—he wants to get his hands on the reference list. (I’ll try again to get him to join.)

Why not invited Shaw to this forum? We can start a separate thread if anyone is interested. I’m busy with plenty of projects of my own but will always find time for a good ‘ole fashion squabble over which end of the egg to crack.

Of course, Colter was a character. I’m sure there have been plenty of embellishment around her. There are plenty of larger-than-life characters attached to the Canyon. It is a big hole with plenty of room to hold plenty of tall tales.
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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Canyonram
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

I noticed that Fred Shaw's book "False Architect: The Mary Colter Hoax" is now listed as a 'Free to Read' Kindle ebook for those with Amazon Prime.
Good deal Mr. Shaw!
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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Re: For the Grand Canyon geology geeks

Post by Canyonram »

No rebuttal. Also, no one joining the discussion/debate on Colter as Canyon Architect.

So, to return the thread to the original topic of 'For the Grand Canyon geology geeks' :

Recent June 2020 report for the South Rim “Geochemical characterization of groundwater evolution south of Grand Canyon, Arizona (USA)”

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 20-02192-0

A similar report from 2009 - 2016 for the North Rim "Geochemical Characterization of Groundwater Discharging from Springs North of the Grand Canyon, Arizona, 2009–2016"

https://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2017/5068/sir20175068_.pdf

Be informed before sipping As and U from Page/Miner’s Spring.
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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