Now gather round folks....

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olesma
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Joined: Feb 09 2002 1:02 pm
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Now gather round folks....

Post by olesma » Nov 19 2003 9:04 pm

WARNING: LONG AND POSSIBLY ANNOYING POST TO FOLLOW!

CONTINUE READING AT YOUR OWN RISK.


Okay folks...grandpa is sitting here in his rocking chair and he would like to have a serious conversation with all of you, so sit down and pay attention.

Wiz - sit your bottom down before I put my boot into it.
HikerinGilbert- quit pulling Woopitup's hair - I said STOP IT!

All settled? Good - let's begin.

The latest round of posts has gotten me thinking - what exactly is the problem with today's world? Understanding and tolerance seem to no longer be normal traits to be found as a common person.

Or so it appears.

A prime example would be the political scene. The constant partisan bickering is becoming annoying, but it's not just with politicians - it is with normal citizens, and more prominent with those who are politically active and those with pronounced ideological overtones.

From the conservative/right: any opinion of a "liberal" (as defined by the current political landscape, not a dictionary/traditional definition) is wrong; it doesn't matter what it is. They are socialists or communists or worse: tax and spend liberals (the horror!). Clinton is a coward, a liar, a criminal and a womanizer and started this country down the road to hades.

From the liberal/left: all conservatives want nothing but to rape the planet and pillage from the poor to give to the rich. They are all war-mongering, jingoist, imperialists. Bush is the worst threat to humanity on the planet and comparable to Hitler in his maniacle schemes for power.

And those are the more sensible viewpoints. There are crazier ones out there. And that isn't even going toward the conspiracy theorists.

Even on this forum - people sniping at each other, misunderstandings and a lot of posturing. Some attempts at reconciliation - and other attempts that are less clear in their intention. And a lot of hurt feelings and offended people (and I guarantee that there are a number of people that have been offended that we haven't even heard from - and now probably never will)

So, what the H-E-*-* happened here? Has it always been this bad? Are humans incapable of understanding one another? Is one side correct and the other side incorrect?

Well - I don't pretend to have the answers. However, I would like to share something that has recently come back into my attention that I had forgotten about for a long time - and it has helped me to at least try to understand the whole thing.

As many of you know - I am studying psychology - and one of the cornerstones of cognitive psychology for quite some time was the concept of SCHEMA. What is a schema? A schema (stated simply) is how a person interprets information or sensory input, and it is based around that individuals past experience.

In cognitive psychology everything is centered around what a person expereinces. We all build our towers of knowledge using the scaffold of our past experience and our future expectations. This particular idea helps explains how two different people with different backgrounds can look at the EXACT same data and come to completely separate conclusions - often at odds with each other. Why? Because they are interpreting the data throught their personal filter - their schema.

It is more of an interesting phenomenon than you might guess. Studies have shown that humans hardly - if ever - use things like true logic. The overwhelming majority of our decisions are based on our schema - not on an objective, logical approach to a problem. That is why the saying "Common sense isn't" is so true. People simply don't view the same things the same way - and their reactions to it will be different. The differences will be major or minor - but there will always be differences - especially in the WAY we arrive at our interpretations.

The study of schema is making a comeback - not always using the same terminology but the concept is still the same(to make a name for yourself in the intellectual world you basically have to come up with a different way of looking at old knowledge, and if you use a new term for something familiar - bingo - you're in!). And it is a rich field of research.

So, what does all this mean?

WARNING: THIS POST IS COMING TO AN END

It basically means that before you condem another person's viewpoint - at least make an attempt to understand it. There really isn't such a thing as an absolutely correct opinion (at least - not outside the world of religion; but we won't go there today). Everyone has a different experience in this life - and we all have our own opinions and way of seeing the world.

That is the miracle of human individuality - and the wonderfulness of it can truly be amazing - if you take the time to see it that way. If you don't like something I have said, make an effort to understand first - then perhaps you can educate me on your views. In fact - go right ahead, please, I welcome it as an opportunity to learn. But, please do it in the light of education - not condemnation or vituperation.

It is a wonderfully diverse landscape of humanity out there. We can all learn a lot if we pay attention and respect differences. We don't have to agree - I never said that - in fact, I would find it utterly boring if we did.

Let's just see if we can recognize that we all have our individual way of seeing the world. If you don't like the way I see the world - that's fine. Please educate me on how you see it - you might be surprised, I might actually agree with you.

But don't count on it.

Now...go fetch granpa some bourbon....
'Weird is a relative, not an absolute.' - A. Einstein

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mttgilbert
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Post by mttgilbert » Nov 19 2003 9:11 pm

You know Olesma, I had half a mind to lock this topic after your first post. I don't think theres anything to add to what you have said. And its not often you'll find me at a loss to add my own two cents.

So everyone, you heard Olesma, lets pull our schemas out our a$$es and try to get along even when we don't agree with one another.
Cogito ergo ambulo cum sacculo
-Matt Gilbert

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olesma
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Post by olesma » Nov 19 2003 9:23 pm

matt gilbert wrote:And its not often you'll find me at a loss to add my own two cents.
Truer words have never been spoken brother.

Oh, and thanks.
'Weird is a relative, not an absolute.' - A. Einstein

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Shi
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Joined: Aug 14 2003 9:40 pm
City, State: Peoria, AZ

Re: Now gather round folks....

Post by Shi » Nov 19 2003 9:41 pm

It is a wonderfully diverse landscape of humanity out there. We can all learn a lot if we pay attention and respect differences. We don't have to agree - I never said that - in fact, I would find it utterly boring if we did.
Amen!! :lol: And I'm not the religious type!

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Wiz
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Post by Wiz » Nov 20 2003 6:01 am

So what you're saying is: "Can't we all just get along"?

Seriously, you're dead on target, Olesma, and I couldn't agree more. I try to be careful about that stuff, and if I've ever dissed anyone's opinion on this forum, I don't recall it. I figure most people are smarter than me anyway (I seem to get dumber every year).

Can I get up off my bottom now?
"The older I get, the better I was."

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HikerInGilbert
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Post by HikerInGilbert » Nov 20 2003 6:32 am

...the crowd of HAZites, their energy spent from the day's activities leave the near lifeless and twitching body of poor Peter of Frederick. An elder voice is heard in the background. It's the voice of the great Sage Olesma. They turn to see Olesma sitting in a rocking chair (?) next to a fire.

The HAZites wander over and sit with Olesma as he begins a tale of woes in the world. They listen intently as his calming voice grabs their focus. As his story ends, words like Schema, and vituperation still ring in their heads. They grab their heads and writhe in pain.

Just then, they are joined by Matthew of Gilbert. Having found his two lucky pennies, in exuberance, he screams GET HIM!!. A lather of frenzy quickly builds amongst the crowd. Now only armed with large sticks, they slowly encircle the great Olesma...

(fade out to screams of Mommee! Mommee! echoing off the canyon walls)


as a side note- I voted for number two. But Jared probably already guessed that would be my vote...

:lol: :rollH:
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Tom 8)

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olesma
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Post by olesma » Nov 20 2003 8:04 am

Wiz wrote:So what you're saying is: "Can't we all just get along"?
Actually - no, I'm not. What I'm saying is that we at least need to be civil, and make an attempt to get along.

I know that in my experience there are some folks who I just plain don't like. They rub me the wrong way - dance on my last nerve, as it were. I understand them well enough - and a few of them even have opinions I respect. I'm civil to them in their presence - but I just don't like em' and I really don't look forward to dealing with them.

But I don't tell them that to their face. I simply try to have as few and as short of an encounter as is absolutely possible.

I think "all just get along" is too much to ask - and again, rather boring. But "be civil" is an attainable goal.
wiz wrote:Can I get up off my bottom now?
No - you're in time out. Sit there and be quiet. If you get up again you'll go to bed without any dessert.
'Weird is a relative, not an absolute.' - A. Einstein

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Wiz
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Post by Wiz » Nov 20 2003 8:20 am

olesma wrote:
wiz wrote:Can I get up off my bottom now?
No - you're in time out. Sit there and be quiet. If you get up again you'll go to bed without any dessert.
:(
"The older I get, the better I was."

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mtoomeyaz
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Re: Now gather round folks....

Post by mtoomeyaz » Nov 20 2003 8:42 am

olesma wrote: There really isn't such a thing as an absolutely correct opinion (at least - not outside the world of religion; but we won't go there today).
Okay, it's tommorrow. Can we go there now?
Mike T
-------------------------------------------------
Less is more

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sherileeaz
Posts: 209
Joined: May 07 2003 9:47 am

own it for 15 minutes

Post by sherileeaz » Nov 20 2003 9:26 am

Dr Phil has stated that we should "own someone's opinion for 15 minutes" in other words give them the benefit of what they have to say. Then when all is said and done, see if you have a new view on the subject.

I think it all goes back to what the book, "All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten"says about respect for others and getting along together.

Good idea Olesma to use psychology to bring your point out about getting along.

Tom HikerInGilbert flunked Kindergarten!! :wink:
His report card read:
Personal and Social Habits - Needs Improvement
Works and plays with others willingly and cooperatively - REALLY needs improvement
Shows respect toward children and adults - Improving
Tries to solve own problems appropriately - Improving
Follows school and class rules - Flunked
Assumes responsibility for school and personal property - Improving
Stays on task - Improving
Is able to share and take turns - Flunked
Uses materials appropriately and returns when finished - Needs Improvment
Listens without interrupting or distracting others - Flunked

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
Sherileeaz 8)
The value of life lies not in the length of days, but in the use we make of them.

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ROGER
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Post by ROGER » Nov 20 2003 10:06 am

Hey Jarod,

What is the great Sage Olesma doing on this forum when he could take Dr. Phils spot????

Roger

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olesma
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Re: Now gather round folks....

Post by olesma » Nov 20 2003 10:06 am

mike t wrote:Okay, it's tommorrow. Can we go there now?
Hey - go for it. It's your funeral.... :twisted:
'Weird is a relative, not an absolute.' - A. Einstein

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woopitup
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Post by woopitup » Nov 20 2003 1:18 pm

May I just say one thing. . . "GROUP HUG" :roll: :GB:

p.s. now what was this about someone pulling my hair?

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Paintninaz
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Re: own it for 15 minutes

Post by Paintninaz » Nov 20 2003 1:22 pm

sherileeaz wrote:I think it all goes back to what the book, "All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten"says about respect for others and getting along together.

Tom HikerInGilbert flunked Kindergarten!! :wink:
His report card read:
Personal and Social Habits - Needs Improvement
Works and plays with others willingly and cooperatively - REALLY needs improvement
Shows respect toward children and adults - Improving
Tries to solve own problems appropriately - Improving
Follows school and class rules - Flunked
Assumes responsibility for school and personal property - Improving
Stays on task - Improving
Is able to share and take turns - Flunked
Uses materials appropriately and returns when finished - Needs Improvment
Listens without interrupting or distracting others - Flunked

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
Sherileeaz 8)
Sheri, now you know his report card wasn't all bad, you didn't post the nice things Tom's Kindergarten teacher had to say about him...

"Tom is a leader, when it comes to recess he’s the first one out of the classroom. Tom seems to have an unquenchable thirst, if we could just turn it towards a yearning for knowledge instead of juice he could really go far in life. Art seems to be a difficult subject for Tom, he has trouble staying within the lines and he’s a danger to the other children when handling scissors, but I have hope for improvement, as he really seems to enjoy the projects involving glue. Always the dreamer, Tom is at his best during nap time. I look forward to having him in my class again next year!"

:lol:
Paintninaz

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ROGER
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Post by ROGER » Nov 20 2003 2:05 pm

Ouch,

Geez Tom,

Is it my imagination or do you get verbally abused more than anyone else on this site????

Roger

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Paintninaz
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Post by Paintninaz » Nov 20 2003 2:21 pm

ROGER wrote:Ouch,

Geez Tom,

Is it my imagination or do you get verbally abused more than anyone else on this sight????

Roger
Ok, I'll be nice. :roll:

Anyway, it was all just in FUN!!!!!! :GB:
Paintninaz

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sherileeaz
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Joined: May 07 2003 9:47 am

oh yes... very positive remarks for Tom HikerinGilbert

Post by sherileeaz » Nov 20 2003 2:38 pm

And don't forget how wonderful he looks standing in the corner with his dunce cap on!

:lol:

Sherileeaz 8) <--his older and wiser sister
The value of life lies not in the length of days, but in the use we make of them.

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Abe
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Post by Abe » Nov 20 2003 4:55 pm

:o I was sleeping!
:o What was the question?
:o Will I be quizzed or tested on this?
woopitup wrote:May I just say one thing. . . "GROUP HUG" :roll: :GB:
I will be in Mesa Saturday afternoon for that HAZ GROUP HUG. I can understand that.

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sherileeaz
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Post by sherileeaz » Nov 20 2003 5:37 pm

Paintninaz wrote:
ROGER wrote:Ouch,

Geez Tom,

Is it my imagination or do you get verbally abused more than anyone else on this sight????

Roger
Ok, I'll be nice. :roll:

Anyway, it was all just in FUN!!!!!! :GB:
IT WAS???? :rollH:
Sherileeaz 8)
The value of life lies not in the length of days, but in the use we make of them.

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HikerInGilbert
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Post by HikerInGilbert » Nov 20 2003 6:04 pm

ROGER wrote:Ouch,

Geez Tom,

Is it my imagination or do you get verbally abused more than anyone else on this site????

Roger
hehehehe... they know I love it... feeble attempts though at best. :wink:

What I don't understand is... I never ever ask for it. Do I??

:A1:
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Tom 8)

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