Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

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KBKB
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Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by KBKB » Dec 24 2017 9:40 am

Is a Tonto Pass required for parking at the Cave Creek Trailhead?

I parked there recently when I did the Seven Springs Inner Loop. I did not see a sign indicating that a pass was required. However, it may just be that I wasn't especially observant that day.

I'm planning another hike from that trailhead and have just noticed that the permit section says "FS" and in the Directions, there is a note, "2012-03-07 Nahimana222 writes: From the signs I saw at the trailhead, you need a Tonto Pass to park."

However, the Cave Creek Trailhead page hosted at the USDA says "No Fees."

So... I'm guessing that Nahimana222's note from 2012 is out of date?

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RowdyandMe
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by RowdyandMe » Dec 24 2017 9:46 am

@KBKB
Well The last time I was there I never noticed any signs requiring a pass.
I will be hiking up there next month and will keep an eye out for a sign.
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chumley
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by chumley » Dec 24 2017 10:35 am

The Tonto National Forest website lists Cave Creek Trailhead as a picnic area subject to the Tonto Pass requirement.

I’ve seen some arguments saying that hikers who simply park and do not utilize any of the amenities (trash cans, bathrooms, etc.) are not subject to the pass requirement. But I wouldn’t recommend it.

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KBKB
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by KBKB » Dec 24 2017 10:44 am

Looking back through my photos, I see that I took one of both of the signs at the trailhead.

So, if it were a fee area, I think it'd be posted prominently on the board to the left...
20171219-DSC06933-medium.jpg
The notice at the upper right is about caring for your dog. Even fully zoomed in on the original, I can't make out the text on the notice at the lower left. The other ones are obvious at the posted resolution.

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KBKB
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by KBKB » Dec 24 2017 10:49 am

chumley wrote:
Dec 24 2017 10:35 am
The Tonto National Forest website lists Cave Creek Trailhead as a picnic area subject to the Tonto Pass requirement.

I’ve seen some arguments saying that hikers who simply park and do not utilize any of the amenities (trash cans, bathrooms, etc.) are not subject to the pass requirement. But I wouldn’t recommend it.
Can you provide a link?

The link I provided in my original post does list picnicking as an activity, but also says "No Fees." in the "At a Glance" section.

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chumley
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by chumley » Dec 24 2017 10:54 am

@KBKB
I probably misunderstood what I read.

This link https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/ho ... ev3_018733
shows Tonto Pass sites and when you click on Picnicking Cave Creek Trailhead is listed. But if you click some of the other picnic sites the pages seem to say specifically when there is a pass required. Since Cave Creek does not have any pass information on that page I presume it’s fee free. Nonetheless I’d follow any posted signage on site.
Profound observer

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KBKB
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by KBKB » Dec 24 2017 11:00 am

chumley wrote:
Dec 24 2017 10:54 am
@KBKB
I probably misunderstood what I read.

This link https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/ho ... ev3_018733
shows Tonto Pass sites and when you click on Picnicking Cave Creek Trailhead is listed. But if you click some of the other picnic sites the pages seem to say specifically when there is a pass required. Since Cave Creek does not have any pass information on that page I presume it’s fee free. Nonetheless I’d follow any posted signage on site.
Thanks for the clarification.

Will definitely follow any posted signage on site.

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by Tough_Boots » Dec 24 2017 12:37 pm

There is no fee for that trailhead. I've been there very recently-- no signs.
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KBKB
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by KBKB » Dec 24 2017 1:38 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:
Dec 24 2017 12:37 pm
There is no fee for that trailhead. I've been there very recently-- no signs.
Excellent. Thanks!

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rcorfman
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by rcorfman » Dec 24 2017 4:20 pm

Also, even if one was required and you had the multi-agency pass (you know, the $80/year NP pass), that would work.
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KBKB
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by KBKB » Dec 24 2017 5:48 pm

rcorfman wrote:
Dec 24 2017 4:20 pm
Also, even if one was required and you had the multi-agency pass (you know, the $80/year NP pass), that would work.
I usually have one of those.

But I was under the impression that the Interagency Pass does not always suffice for all fee areas within the Tonto NF.

After following a few links, I came across this text: "America the Beautiful Interagency Passes are now only accepted at picnicking sites." So, for the Cave Creek Trailhead, it would work (if it were in fact designated as a fee area), since it's also a picnicking site.

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RowdyandMe
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by RowdyandMe » Dec 24 2017 6:02 pm

@KBKB
Does that include food? :lol:
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by outdoor_lover » Dec 26 2017 2:48 pm

My Guess is that it was a Fee Site at one Time, but they discontinued it when they closed Seven Springs. I've never seen it Posted as a Fee Site, but I didn't start going there until after Seven Springs was Closed. They probably don't feel like it's worth sending someone up there to Enforce it just for the TH....
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by hikeaz » Dec 26 2017 3:05 pm

chumley wrote:
Dec 24 2017 10:35 am
The Tonto National Forest website lists Cave Creek Trailhead as a picnic area subject to the Tonto Pass requirement.

I’ve seen some arguments saying that hikers who simply park and do not utilize any of the amenities (trash cans, bathrooms, etc.) are not subject to the pass requirement. But I wouldn’t recommend it.
32.2 - Standard Amenity Recreation Fees for Areas https://www.fs.fed.us/im/directives/fsh ... .13_30.doc

To qualify for charging a standard amenity recreation fee, an area must:
1. Provide significant opportunities for outdoor recreation;
2. Have substantial Federal investments, such as a high level of capital improvements or operating expenditures;
3. Allow for efficient fee collection; and
4. Contain or provide all of the following amenities:
a. Designated developed parking;
b. A permanent toilet facility;
c. A permanent trash receptacle;
d. An interpretive sign, exhibit, or kiosk;
e. A picnic table; and
f. Security services;.

Anyone who has been to Seven Springs after dark knows that 'security' is 'pack it in'.
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KBKB
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by KBKB » Dec 26 2017 4:44 pm

outdoor_lover wrote:
Dec 26 2017 2:48 pm
... after Seven Springs was Closed.
Seven Springs is closed?

I thought I saw some folks at the campground when I hiked there last Friday.

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by outdoor_lover » Dec 26 2017 5:50 pm

@KBKB
It's been closed for at least 4 Years... From what everyone has been led to believe, it's Permanent. But the Facilities are still there and I'm sure people still do it....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming, "Wow What a Ride!"

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mazatzal
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by mazatzal » Dec 26 2017 6:05 pm

The CCC campground on the left as you arrive closed after the 2005 cave creek complex fire. The campground further upstream, just before the second crossing and the official trailhead, is open.
Last edited by mazatzal on Dec 27 2017 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cactuscat
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by cactuscat » Dec 26 2017 9:30 pm

A quick look at the FS website seems pretty clear. No fee for picnic/hike - $10 per night fee for camping (which must be paid at Cave Creek Ranger Station - yeah, right!).
Where is the "dislike" button?

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cactuscat
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by cactuscat » Dec 26 2017 9:36 pm

hikeaz wrote:f. Security services;.

Anyone who has been to Seven Springs after dark knows that 'security' is 'pack it in'.
Problem is that same document defines security services only as occurring "frequently or routinely" ... that's open to alot of interpretation. Once a week could be considered routine.
Where is the "dislike" button?

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by Alston_Neal » Dec 27 2017 11:18 am

outdoor_lover wrote:It's been closed for at least 4 Years.
Just before it closed my wife and I had parked there and after our hike we were having refreshments. There was nobody in the picnic area except us, but that changed as a young man approached us wanting to know if we had an extra soda. I gave him one while admiring his stylish ankle bracelet, probably courtesy of Arizona Department of Corrections.
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