Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

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KBKB
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Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by KBKB » Dec 24 2017 9:40 am

Is a Tonto Pass required for parking at the Cave Creek Trailhead?

I parked there recently when I did the Seven Springs Inner Loop. I did not see a sign indicating that a pass was required. However, it may just be that I wasn't especially observant that day.

I'm planning another hike from that trailhead and have just noticed that the permit section says "FS" and in the Directions, there is a note, "2012-03-07 Nahimana222 writes: From the signs I saw at the trailhead, you need a Tonto Pass to park."

However, the Cave Creek Trailhead page hosted at the USDA says "No Fees."

So... I'm guessing that Nahimana222's note from 2012 is out of date?

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ddgrunning
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by ddgrunning » Dec 27 2017 11:55 am

@hikeaz
@KBKB

Seems like somebody is engaging in false advertising.

The Tonto NF website states that America the Beautiful Passes apply "only to sites with entrance fees, [and thus] they have limited applicability on the Tonto National Forest."
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/pa ... eprd490925. Then, on the Tonto pass page, it says: "America the Beautiful Interagency Passes are now only accepted at picnicking sites." https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/pa ... eprd518434

However, the NPS America the Beautiful site advertises the pass much more broadly: "Each pass covers entrance fees at national parks and national wildlife refuges as well as standard amenity fees (day use fees) at national forests and grasslands, and at lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation and U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. A pass covers entrance, standard amenity fees and day use fees for a driver and all passengers in a personal vehicle at per vehicle fee areas (or up to four adults at sites that charge per person)."
https://www.nps.gov/planyourvisit/passes.htm

Seems like the Tonto NF is begrudging the applicability of the ATB pass at its sites and is looking for loopholes--or worse, just ignoring the fact that ABT in fact applies. Interestingly, the Tonto page referenced above refers you to a FAQ page for more information. The FAQ page contains no faqs, but simply says: "This content is being updated," and refers you to the Tonto NF pass page, which explains that the necessary pass is "based on what activity you are planning to do." A list of "activities" is then provided, but interestingly, omits hiking.

:-k :-k :-k

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mazatzal
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by mazatzal » Dec 27 2017 1:19 pm

Another option: park on FR 24B, just across the creek there is a space for a couple of vehicles.
Walk down FR 24B to where the trail crosses.

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Hansenaz
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by Hansenaz » Dec 27 2017 3:58 pm

KBKB wrote:After following a few links, I came across this text: "America the Beautiful Interagency Passes are now only accepted at picnicking sites." So, for the Cave Creek Trailhead, it would work (if it were in fact designated as a fee area), since it's also a picnicking site.
This is a long-standing gripe of mine that you need a lawyer to help you comply with what should be reasonable rules. I noticed last weekend when heading out of Cave Creek toward Horseshoe Lake that the "always closed" ranger station had installed a fee pay station which knocks down one barrier to compliance. But I do have a (senior) America the Beautiful Pass. Do I still need a Tonto Pass to park along Horseshoe Lake Rd. and go for a hike?

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chumley
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by chumley » Dec 27 2017 4:06 pm

@Hansenaz

Yes. Furthermore, we should all willingly pay entrance fees, parking fees, use fees, camping fees, and access fees wherever we go because everything is underfunded! In fact, we should voluntarily pay fees even where fees are not required! :)
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by Hansenaz » Dec 27 2017 4:20 pm

@chumley
I don't disagree at all...I'd be happy to pay a premium for a big red sticker that would let me both escape the "fee uncertainty landscape" and support our public lands and their arcane designations and rules. I notice you are very good at reading and understanding the fine print....maybe you could put together a "Chumley Pass" for the central AZ hiker who wants to not worry about Tonto, State Trust, Red Rock, etc....add a HAZ donation! I'll buy one!

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chumley
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by chumley » Dec 27 2017 5:03 pm

@Hansenaz
It doesn't matter which trailhead I go to, I mostly just use my TSA Pre ✔️.
At least this way, I get to keep my shoes on.
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ddgrunning
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by ddgrunning » Dec 27 2017 5:25 pm

@chumley

Charitable contributions are encouraged and, I'm sure, welcomed. The government is happy to accept donations to reduce its underfunded-ness: https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/23779454 :D

But seriously, being underfunded is not a license to engage in hide-the-ball or bait-and-switch tactics, which is what appears to be happening here. People who affirmatively want to "follow the rules" shouldn't be left wondering whether payment is required or is simply requested as a voluntary gesture.

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by hikeaz » Dec 28 2017 9:16 am

The FS has a long-standing habit of thumbing their nose at laws they disagree with. Even since they have lost multiple lawsuits (at what cost to the taxpayer?) they continue to extort $ from those using non-conforming parking areas/trail-heads. Of special note is the group of tyrants who were running the Catalina Highway ca$h grab. http://www.westernslopenofee.org/wp-con ... kedown.pdf
Underfunded? Have you seen the new FS office in Mesa? Have you seen the hundreds of FS Ford crew-cab diesels that ONE GUY (gal) rides around in? (BTW they are about $60k+ ea. before added equipment). Ever try and get water or road condition information from any of their offices?
Plus - the FS seems to have no issue with 'giving away the farm' on fees they DO collect.."The sales commissions paid to RED ROCK pass sellers take an average of 22% of what you pay, including 48% when you buy a pass through one of the automated machines provided by a private vendor. " GAO 03-470. Even though the LAW says they are to keep the cost to no more than 15% "FLREA specifies that “The Secretary may use not more than an average of 15 percent of total revenues collected under this chapter for administration, overhead, and indirect costs related to the recreation fee program by that Secretary.” FLREA_FY2012_Triennial_Report. Again, total disregard for the law.

To illustrate more of the crap the tyrannical USFS/BLM pulls? >
http://www.westernslopenofee.org/fee-wa ... ture-pass/
http://www.westernslopenofee.org/fee-wa ... t-service/
http://www.westernslopenofee.org/fee-wa ... n-permits/
kurt

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by Tough_Boots » Dec 29 2017 11:17 am

Should we merge this thread with the Redflex one now?
"there is no love where there is no bramble."
--bill callahan

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hikeaz
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by hikeaz » Dec 29 2017 12:27 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:
Dec 29 2017 11:17 am
Should we merge this thread with the Redflex one now?
Sounds good! Maybe under the heading 'Government Money Grab"?
kurt

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by big_load » Dec 29 2017 12:37 pm

I can't remember all the places I've seen the ATB Pass rejected. One of them was Gila Cliff Dwelling. My takeaway from overhearing all arguing at entrances is that I wouldn't count on it anywhere but National Parks.

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by chumley » Dec 29 2017 12:39 pm

@big_load
Which in some weird way makes sense. If the NPS is collecting the fees for the ATB, I bet they're not sending any of it to Nat Forests, State Parks, etc. So why should they accept it? It's straight up lost revenue for them with no benefits.
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by Tough_Boots » Dec 29 2017 2:58 pm

hikeaz wrote:Sounds good! Maybe under the heading 'Government Money Grab"?
I was thinking more "Baby boomers complaining about minuscule amounts of money and other things they don't like about the world they created".
"there is no love where there is no bramble."
--bill callahan

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hikeaz
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by hikeaz » Dec 29 2017 4:33 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:
Dec 29 2017 2:58 pm
hikeaz wrote:Sounds good! Maybe under the heading 'Government Money Grab"?
I was thinking more "Baby boomers complaining about minuscule amounts of money and other things they don't like about the world they created".
That's a good one too! Although it kinda seems 'complainy' in its own right. :)
kurt

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by CannondaleKid » Dec 29 2017 6:11 pm

hikeaz wrote:Have you seen the new FS office in Mesa?
New?
Hmmm... alternative facts? :-k

That 'new' Forest Service office will reach it's 15th birthday in 2018.
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by hikeaz » Dec 30 2017 9:01 am

@CannondaleKid
Thanks for the correction....... The older I get the more recent formerly 'new' things seem.
kurt

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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by CannondaleKid » Dec 30 2017 3:16 pm

hikeaz wrote:The older I get the more recent formerly 'new' things seem.
Same here... :-$
CannondaleKid

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Grimey
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Re: Tonto Pass required for Cave Creek TH ??

Post by Grimey » Jan 01 2018 6:25 pm

chumley wrote:Which in some weird way makes sense. If the NPS is collecting the fees for the ATB, I bet they're not sending any of it to Nat Forests, State Parks, etc.

Pardon my naivete... but I think the money from the sale of ATB passes is spread among several agencies.

The ATB my wife bought me came directly from the USGS. Upon review, it appears you can actually buy them online from the NPS, USGS, recreation.gov and maybe a couple other sites. Recreation.gov lists the following agencies as involved:

"Bureau of Land Management
Bureau of Reclamation
Fish and Wildlife Service
USDA Forest Service
National Park Service
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers"

Recreation.gov also lists resources regarding where and for what the ATB pass can be used. A point of distinction seems to be the use of the term "Standard Amenity fees" (covered) versus "Expanded Amenity fees" (not covered.)

Strange that Gila Cliff Dwellings would reject the pass, considering it is listed as one of the sites you can buy one...

State Parks are understandably not a part of the ATB scheme, as this looks to be strictly a federal program.

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