Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

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Thoreau
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Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Thoreau »

Meeting is tomorrow, July 13th...

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/lo ... 945916002/

"The Phoenix fire union is asking the city’s Parks and Recreation board to consider closing several challenging Valley trails on days with an excessive heat watch.

During a public meeting on Tuesday, members of the United Phoenix Firefighters Association will request restrictions to three trailheads at Camelback Mountain and Piestewa Peak when outside temperatures reach 105 degrees."

Some of my best times on those trails were very much above 105 degrees. It's the only time the crowds thin out enough to get a good pace going.
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Canyonram
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

Response to Shatterarm,

Yes, the biggest factor in heat-related illness is the heat you generate yourself. When there are extreme external environmental heat factors, your body cannot cool itself (mostly via sweating) enough to expel the internal heat. If you have a heart-attack, it is your heart that is the problem. If you have a heat-related illness, it is your internal body temperature that is the problem.

Take a look at Heat Index and you will see varying levels of warning. This is where extreme exertion in more mild temps come into play---you can experience heat-related illness when you cannot lose your body heat to the environment. You can suffer from heat-related illness in the middle of winter if you hike and exceed the ability of your body to expel heat to the environment. You can also sit on a raft in extreme heat and do OK---you are not exerting yourself and you have plenty of water to splash and your self to dispel heat. Multiple factors go into that equation. And, like Chumley stated, I can explain it to you but I won't.

Please take the time to read the different sources I posted. It will answer a lot of your questions---and will keep you from trying to find something to attack me and one-up my comments. Here's a one-page summary sheet---I used to provide this type of info when I gave orientation classes to new employees at Grand Canyon who were also looking to do some Inner Canyon hiking. Stay safe.

https://www.mhsaa.com/portals/0/documen ... atcard.pdf
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

chumley wrote: Aug 31 2021 5:34 pmI can speculate on any number of other factors that could contribute to these outcomes. But I won't.
Canyonram wrote: Aug 31 2021 6:25 pmAnd, like Chumley stated, I can explain it to you but I won't.
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ShatteredArm
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by ShatteredArm »

@Canyonram
I don't have any questions for you, other than, why do you think we're all a bunch of idiots?

Seriously, I'm not interested in what you think you know about exercising in hot weather. I have a lot of experience doing it.
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xsproutx
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by xsproutx »

chumley wrote: I can speculate on any number of other factors that could contribute to these outcomes. But I won't.
I will because this is fun: they're overweight/out of shape/drank too much the night before/didn't drink enough water. The first two could be wrong because exhaustion can be caused by many factors, of course, but dehydration? 100% in their control.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing at this point, Canyonram. Your arguments seem to be, "It's hot as shit, people can get injured out there." This is a fact, for sure. The scenario in question, however, is... why should that be a reason to close trails? The statement is that it's to protect firefighters/SAR/etc. My argument is that they choose a job with certain things that are required, so they need to meet those requirements. In phoenix, that means some really hot/hard shit for a few months out of the year. If they want to do that job they've chosen successfully, then they need to do the physical training required to perform it and take steps to ensure they're hydrated. If that means they gotta cut down on the booze or carry salt packets or nuun with them, then so be it. I don't want people to be hurt for willy nilly reasons, I'm not callous. These activities are in their job description, however. I have a job that is pretty damn hard and I have to do a lot of work to remain competitive. It sucks sometimes, but I like the gig, so I put in the work. Not everyone is cut out for everything.
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Alston_Neal
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Alston_Neal »

Holy snickers I haven't seen this many HAZ forum members get this much exercise for awhile.
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Canyonram
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

@ShatteredArm
ShatteredArm wrote:I don't have any questions for you, other than, why do you think we're all a bunch of idiots?

Seriously, I'm not interested in what you think you know about exercising in hot weather. I have a lot of experience doing i
Put me on 'Ignore'
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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ShatteredArm
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by ShatteredArm »

@Canyonram
I'd suggest that, after observing all the responses you've been getting, that you'd mute yourself, if you had some self-awareness.
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Canyonram
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

xsproutx wrote:If that means they gotta cut down on the booze or carry salt packets or nuun with them, then so be it.
Pretty demeaning view of firefighters. I dare you to walk into a fire station or go to the front lines where 1000's are fighting wild fires and share your opinion with them.

I looked up the requirements for becoming a member of the Phoenix Fire Department. Pretty extensive number of hurdles to qualify:

https://www.phoenix.gov/fire/employment/firefighters

The Physical fitness requirements:

https://www.phoenix.gov/fire/employment ... ility-test

The salary doesn’t look to be near enough for the dangers they will confront. They are putting their lives on the line—sometimes for people who could care less about the firefighter who is there to rescue them. They are taking a job full of risks—but it shouldn’t include unnecessary risks like several trail carry-outs a day that has 12 going home sick and putting 2 in the hospital.

I’ll continue to side with the Phoenix Fire Department and their efforts to close the 3 public trails during Extreme Heat Index periods. There is no rationale that will justify putting them at risk simply for the pleasure and convenience of some out for exercise or a jog. What a horrific thing to do! Close the trail and inconvenience me!! Wah-wah-wah—I want to go on MY trail.

The self-important and entitled whiners can find another location for their exercise. Period.
Last edited by Canyonram on Aug 31 2021 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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Canyonram
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

ShatteredArm wrote:I'd suggest that, after observing all the responses you've been getting, that you'd mute yourself, if you had some self-awareness.
Only a small subset of the forum members. My guess is that most don't want to get in the cross-fire and deal with the attacks for sharing their opinion---especially since we have a few very vocal members who are mortally wounded that they may not have access to one of their favorite city trails and even more disgusted that someone dares agree with move.

"I like to keep my enemies very close. Specifically, I like to keep them in head-butting proximity" Author unknown.

PS Go ahead, make my day and Put Me on Ignore.
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

Canyonram wrote:The salary doesn’t look to be near enough for the dangers they will confront
An author may enjoy writing books, even if very few people choose to purchase or read them. Monetary compensation isn't always the driving factor behind what a person decides to do or the satisfaction they derive from their work. This may be true for other occupations too.
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xsproutx
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by xsproutx »

@Canyonram
I do and I have and I spent several years in Iraq and Afghanistan where I frequently had to run around in MOPP4, which is waaaaaaay hotter than what they're doing here. It absolutely sucked and I got paid less than they do. Money isn't the only motivating factor.

One big difference? I had to have a certain fitness to join... and had to maintain it. They don't. You call it an unnecessary risk but I disagree: we live in the desert, one of the hottest places in the country. It is literally part of the job description. If this was the PNW? I would *never* expect the same from those guys because it's just not part of what is *normal* and *often*.

"The self-important and entitled whiners can find another location for their exercise. Period."
The problem with that statement is that it's already *proven* that this precedent is being used to restrict other trails. That's the main problem for me: you're restricting access to public lands I pay for without any evidence that the problem is *directly* resulted from extreme weather/temp versus *personal* decisions the people who were injured made. If a firefighter isn't maintaining what we would call 'combat readiness', that's on them, not me. Frankly, if someone is suffering from renal failure due to a hike up camelback, that speaks to poor choices (or preexisting medical conditions, which should probably preclude them from getting the job) that have nothing to do with hiking in one day of extreme temps. While a tourist from Boston can be excused for not understanding what needs to be done/ya need water, I can't excuse a public servant who is paid to do it here.

"There is no rationale...."
The rationale is that it's public land and they signed up for a job that has very strong physical requirements that they MET at one point and need to CONTINUE to meet. My understanding is that there is no real annual fitness re-evaluation similar to what the military does and this seems evident to me by many of the (very nice, what I'm sure are very capable of putting out fires) personnel I've met. I'll admit, I could be wrong on this but it's pretty common around the country. If someone shows me I'm wrong and they have to requalify every year, that would get me re-thinking about a couple of things.
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by RedRoxx44 »

Life is not fair nor equal. All throughout history there have been groups of people who were any combination of smart, lucky, dumb, lucky, self sacrificing, selfish, strong, weak, crazy, arrogant, et al. Those perceived to be good, evil, admirable, scoundrels. Things haven't changed in the human societal and cultural experience. Just a different scale. Someone said you can't legislate common sense. I like to imagine sometimes the cliff dwellers sitting and looking at a guy climbing a wall on the opposite side of the canyon from their dwelling. Taking bets if he should fall or not. If he did, one less mouth to feed. Sorrow of his family members. If he made it the elders scheming on how to use his talent, and promoting him.
Some people are idiots and or ignorant and will be in situations where they will die; and if others come to rescue sometimes they will die. It's all unfortunate but that is the way it is. You can be all prepared and still some will be injured or die. Most of these laws are just CYA, it is not really to protect the public but to protect the money; and the gatekeepers.
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Thoreau
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Thoreau »

Just sitting here reminiscing of the July 4th hike I did many years ago (Camelback traverse from Echo to bottom of Cholla and back.) Got stuck in a traffic jam going back up Cholla. The cause? Ironically, a painfully slow-moving herd of firefighters (all sporting their station logos/shirts/numbers) and in normal hiking attire/gear otherwise.

Not much more to add to the thread that the more intelligent among us haven't already contributed, but it's fun to watch one repeat poster in particular argue with more vigor and less logic than even the union did during the City of Phoenix meeting covering this topic.

Meanwhile, 28 days left to this trainwreck before they likely ram the same 'oooooh it was TOTES successful, but no data, but trust us, it's for teh safeness!' into a more permanent policy.

Just for reference, this experiment runs from 07/16 to 09/30. 77 days total. We are currently 49 days into that window, and there have been five NWS excessive heat watch days. Just how much useful data do they even think the test phase is going to provide at that rate? (Clearly they are banking on new data since the union put zero effort into gathering data prior to the council meeting, by their own admission.)
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