Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

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Thoreau
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Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Thoreau »

Meeting is tomorrow, July 13th...

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/lo ... 945916002/

"The Phoenix fire union is asking the city’s Parks and Recreation board to consider closing several challenging Valley trails on days with an excessive heat watch.

During a public meeting on Tuesday, members of the United Phoenix Firefighters Association will request restrictions to three trailheads at Camelback Mountain and Piestewa Peak when outside temperatures reach 105 degrees."

Some of my best times on those trails were very much above 105 degrees. It's the only time the crowds thin out enough to get a good pace going.
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KwaiChang
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by KwaiChang »

nonot wrote:If they close the trails then I wouldn't expect first responders to respond to emergencies at all.
I agree with this - HOWEVER - the Karen's out there will EXPECT and then later SUE if THEY don't get what they want when they want it......sad but true. Very sad.
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KwaiChang
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by KwaiChang »

nonot wrote:and if you fail to properly prepare, then you die with no chance of rescue. But such a policy of letting people die is too gruesome for the average citizen to stomach. The politicians would never vote for that, I'd think.
That would be cool to see a vote in which lawmakers were required a "Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down" Nero style!!!! LOL!
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-phoen ... k-mountain
PHOENIX — Not even 4 p.m. on Thursday and technical rescue crews with the Phoenix Fire Department have reportedly responded to their fourth mountain rescue of the day at Camelback Mountain to help distressed hikers who apparently underestimated the summer heat.
It only hit 102 today. Maybe it's the humidity. :sweat:
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LindaAnn
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by LindaAnn »

@chumley So, a guy who opted to not turn around after consuming half of his water. And a family from out of state hiking around on the mountain for…hours? But, yeah, lets restrict everyones access to these trails because some people make bad decisions. I think anyone has the right to determine the level of risk they are comfortable with, even if it’s stupid, but I say charge people for their rescue if they choose to hike above certain temps and don’t bring X liters of water.

I personally doubt it’s really the firefighters griping so much about these rescues as it is the union and city officials because they don’t want to be responsible for paying any lost time/insurance to the firefighters. These guys fight fires in the middle of summer in full gear, I’m pretty sure most of them can handle a 2-3 mile hike in the summer.
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

I think even the post office has a motto that's more dedicated. :o
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Heliops
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Heliops »

@LindaAnn I'm not going to argue with you over your opinion. But let me tell you from first hand knowledge no human should be out there when these heat related rescues happen. I maintain Phoenix's rescue helicopter and have seen it launch more than once above 105. Last rant why would want to hike above 105??
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LindaAnn
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by LindaAnn »

@Heliops If you don’t want to argue, then why did you reply? I happen to not want a nanny state for people who are capable of making their own decisions. Not to mention, no firefighter or rescuer in this country has been forced into the job against their will. 105 or 110 is not that hot for people who are conditioned for it. Some people (not me) actually like warm temps. Instead of arguing with people you don’t know, why don’t you get back to maintaining that helicopter, which must be destined for a museum since nobody in the city actually wants to use it.
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Jim_H
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Jim_H »

I don't want a nanny state, but I also think it is ridiculous that people believe that society should always be there to save them from themselves, or from what can be seen as bad luck (hiking Piestewa in 115 would not be bad luck, to be clear). I'm a big fan of, "it isn't closed, but if you do something stupid you are on your own".

In fact, last summer during the Black Liberation Movement riots in Seattle's infamous "no go" separatist zone where radical revolutionaries (insurrectionists, really) had taken over a section of the city and were practicing their own brand of ethno-communism, surprisingly (I'm sure) the murder rate spiked. During one confused incident the insurrectionists pleaded for help from the state which they were demanding to over-throw. The state, in the form of Police, was refused entry, but to no one's surprise the Emergency Medical Personnel were not about to risk their lives to enter the insurrectionist No Go Zone. Commies were not happy. I was shocked. Shocked!

What does this have to do with Phoenix? No much. However, if you do stupid things, like hike in 110 or 114, which I did plenty of times during my time in Phoenix, either be prepared to fend for yourself, or die. If you're from Maine, and the hottest you ever experienced was 78 and misty, then maybe don't go. If you do, either plan for death in those temperatures or carry a gallon of water. God forbid that people actually exercise judgement and reasonable thought processes and either turn around, or plan for the conditions by bringing adequate supplies.

People, almost all people alive today, are children, who never have to fend for themselves and think that there will always be some technology or some superman that will save them. Cellphones have made this way worse in the last 20 some odd years.
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RedRoxx44
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by RedRoxx44 »

Unfortunately, due to enough of the nanny state, people are alive today that would have not made it even a 100 years ago. IMO it has made our global society weak. My hope is I am dead and gone when it corrects itself.

And for the record if you study some anthropological info some people with musculoskeletal deformations did live to the normal ( for the time) ripe old age of 30 so my statement does not target those with disability.
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nonot
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by nonot »

It is apparent that we already live in a nanny state, where no matter how stupid or ridiculous you behave, there is an expectation already established for search and rescue/emergency services to swoop in with a safety net, whether it be hiking, driving, biking, etc. If you don't want to live in a nanny state you either need to move out of the US, or get very active in your local government to reverse perhaps the last 40 years of public policy. Arguing on a message board isn't going to effect that type of change, if that is really your goal.

Decisions such as this closure are pretty obvious continuations of the existing nanny policy. The statistics that so many rescues occur are already plenty of evidence that such a nanny policy has been in existence for a long time which funds these rescue activities. I think what has happened here is that a few individuals are personally effected by closures of their favorite trails...and I agree it is upsetting when you favorite/local hike is affected. But its laughable to cite this as the first law in which the government is actively forbidding activities with the goal of protecting stupid people from themselves.
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

@nonot
I don't see government providing a public service as an equivalent to government enacting restrictions on people's freedom. One is a pretty common government function while the other is viewed by some as "nanny state". The two are obviously linked and the degree of link varies by activity. I see the frustration some people have as a result of the increase in the latter being blamed on an increase in the former while there may or may not be data to support the conclusion (correlation is not causation). There is room for reasonable people to disagree on the topic, but it seems to be worthy of discussion and evaluation rather than mere dismissal.
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ShatteredArm
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by ShatteredArm »

Heliops wrote:But let me tell you from first hand knowledge no human should be out there when these heat related rescues happen.
I'll take science over what you call "first hand knowledge". There's a such thing as heat acclimatization.

Before Jim Walmsley achieved his first Western States victory a few years ago, I saw him running down Thompson Peak Parkway when it was 110 degrees out...while completely bundled up in sweats.

This was right before I went for a run at the (mostly empty) Gateway trailhead.

For what it's worth, a lot of people experience heat illness when it's only in the 90s.
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joebartels
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by joebartels »

Acclimation and duration are interesting points. No clue if either is remotely true. Serious pre-hydration and continued hydration with electrolytes make all the difference for me.
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

We have no rationale for doing what we did but at least we're doing something! :lol:
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nonot
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by nonot »

chumley wrote: Jul 26 2021 2:08 pm We have no rationale for doing what we did but at least we're doing something! :lol:
Quite correct, the 12 hospitalized firefighters, 2 of which suffered kidney failures, fail to qualify as rationale. Good to see sympathy being expressed on this message board towards the first responders!
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

FWIW, though this may have escaped some here, it is possible to be BOTH sympathetic to first responders injured in the line of duty AND ALSO support fact-based policies that will actually help reduce danger and limit potential injury to these valued community servants in the future. As opposed to throwing spaghetti at the wall and
fire union spokesperson PJ Dean wrote:hopefully
have something stick.
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ShatteredArm
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by ShatteredArm »

nonot wrote:Good to see sympathy being expressed on this message board towards the first responders!
You might have a bright future in politics.
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Nighthiker
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Nighthiker »

During my career we would respond only to be canceled by the Sheriff's Dept. after we arrived at the trailhead and told to leave though the Sheriff's Dept. had not arrived yet. The times we did get the go was when it was usually above 105, Pizza Oven Hike.
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friendofThundergod
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by friendofThundergod »

We ran missions and worked 12-16 hours a day in full battle rattle in Iraq, I did not see one solider get kidney failure. I think Phoenix FD needs to address those fitness standards some if dudes are getting kidney failure from walking up a hill in the summer, lol. Tell those meatheads to lay off the creatine in the morning, drink more water and do more cardio...Now where’s that stirring the pot emoji? lol
Last edited by friendofThundergod on Jul 29 2021 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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