Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

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Thoreau
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Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Thoreau »

Meeting is tomorrow, July 13th...

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/lo ... 945916002/

"The Phoenix fire union is asking the city’s Parks and Recreation board to consider closing several challenging Valley trails on days with an excessive heat watch.

During a public meeting on Tuesday, members of the United Phoenix Firefighters Association will request restrictions to three trailheads at Camelback Mountain and Piestewa Peak when outside temperatures reach 105 degrees."

Some of my best times on those trails were very much above 105 degrees. It's the only time the crowds thin out enough to get a good pace going.
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Alston_Neal »

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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by azbackpackr »

@Alston_Neal
We moved a bunch of dirt. Should I be worried? :scared:
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

Yo Spiderlegs,

Here's some more references regarding this issue.

“Observational Study of Grand Canyon Rim-to-Rim Day Hikers: Determining Behavior Patterns to Aid in Preventive Search and Rescue Efforts”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3218301467

“Physiological Temperature Thresholds and Heat-Related Hiker Assists: Preventive Search and Rescue in Grand Canyon National Park”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3214000684

“Exertional Heat-Related Illnesses at the Grand Canyon National Park, 2004–2009"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3213001609

Dead Men Walking: Search and Rescue in US National Parks

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3209701280

“Helicopters in Search and Rescue—Basic Level”

https://mra.org/wp-content/uploads/2019 ... _Basic.pdf

“Who pays for Search and Rescue?”

https://www.outdoors.org/resources/amc- ... shire-sar/

“Get into Trouble Outdoors — Who Pays for the Rescue?”
http://content.time.com/time/nation/art ... 21,00.html

“National Park Search and Rescue: Should the Rescued Help Pay the Bills?”

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2 ... ll-rescued

“Paying for Wilderness Search and Rescue: Private Cost, or Public Obligation?”

https://www.backpacker.com/news-and-eve ... bligation/

“Should People Pay for their rescue?”

https://www.theverticaladventurer.com/s ... ir-Rescues

“Billing For Search and Rescue Missions -- Yes, or No?” (With a growing comment section covering both sides of the issue)

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2 ... -yes-or-no
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friendofThundergod
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by friendofThundergod »

I think sometimes when people argue something is a slippery slope, those people tend to be criticized by people who claim that it is some sort of fallacious reasoning and say A will never reasonably lead to B etc....

Well its spreading....

https://www.climbing.com/news/in-some-n ... rs-to-fly/

Literally cites Phoenix and its new policy.
If that happens, hikers could stand to lose access. In July, the City of Phoenix Parks and Recreation Bard approved a pilot program to close some trails between 11 a.m. and 5 p.m. whenever the National Weather Service issues an Excessive Heat Watch
Its funny, my news feed the last few years had me convinced the greatest threat to public land and access was the prior administration and its friendliness with mining companies and the natural resource extracting sector, oddly enough, now its starting to look like our greatest threat to public land and access may come from arbitrary closures by local, state and federal entities in their efforts to protect the lowest common denominators walking among us.

I can't wait for those gates to go in at the top of the Grand Canyon to prevent hiking below the rim on the 100 or so days of year a heat advisory is issued. :lol:
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

friendofThundergod wrote:I can't wait for those gates to go in at the top of the Grand Canyon to prevent hiking below the rim on the 100 or so days of year a heat advisory is issued.
A few years ago NPS did attempt a gate across the BA trail to warn day hikers. At the mile-an-half rest house they had a swinging gate that extended the width of the trail with a sign that warned against attempting to go any further on a day hike. People ignored the warning and simply stacked rocks up to keep the gate from blocking the trail. NPS finally gave up and removed the gate.

Now, Preventative Search and Rescue volunteers are along the BA to try and gently advise people that it is not a good idea to head to the River while wearing flip-flops and pushing a 6-month old infant in a stroller. When I worked PSAR, I would spot such adventurers and point out the first big curve in the BA as the trail dropped into the Canyon (the spot where mule trains will pause and see who wants to back out of the trip). I would ask, “How long do you think it would take you to hike down to that point and turn around and come back?” Most would be way off . . . “Oh, about ten minutes.” I’d ask them to hike down and back and make the decision if they wanted to continue. Some took me up on the challenge and would thank me after they huffed-and-puffed back to the rim. I’d congratulate them on going below the Rim at Grand Canyon. Others would get to the curve, turn, and give me the middle-finger salute and continue on their way. On occasion, I would still be at my post on their return and would use my middle finger to point directions to the BA Ice Cream stand.

Backpacker Magazine has for many years labeled the BA as one of the most dangerous trails:

https://www.backpacker.com/survival/bri ... ous-hikes/

NPS and the Grand Canyon Association may have stubbed their toe when it comes to the BA. In May, 2013, they completed major renovation to the BA trail head. Now, it looks like an attraction along ‘Adventure Land’ at Disneyland. The rim trail blends gently into the BA and literally propels visitors down into the Canyon. In addition, they added about 90 parking spots at the trail head that invites the unprepared to go for a stroll. In the past, the rough approach to the BA would curtail the causal tourist; now it invites them down.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/grand_can ... 676210897/

NPS wants to maximize the visitor experience. Rangers in the back country office routinely have to deal with hikers who want to do a primitive route when they have zero Canyon or desert experience. Their ace-in-the-hole is that they are looking at the computer screen and the belligerent hiker is not. They will gently suggest an overnight at Indian Gardens and out as a first hike. Maximizing that visitor experience sometimes includes allowing free access to the Canyon even as that access costs $$$ in rescue efforts and the occasional death along the trail. At this point in time, I don’t see NPS using gates as a solution. Maybe they should.
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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Canyonram
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

friendofThundergod wrote: now its starting to look like our greatest threat to public land and access may come from arbitrary closures by local, state and federal entities in their efforts to protect the lowest common denominators walking among us.
Thanks for providing the link to the dangers of helicopter rescue in extreme heat. That danger to SAR staff is sufficient enough reason (for me) to close public trails when the Phoenix temperatures reach extreme levels. It is not just a matter of making arbitrary decisions based on the ‘lowest common denominator.’ The human body has an upper limit and tolerance level for extreme heat—that applies to us all. Even the most superb athlete who is heat-acclimated, fully hydrated, electrolytes balanced, etc. will reach a break-point when the environmental heat burden trumps everything. Down you go. At Grand Canyon, one of the most frequent heat-related victims needing assistance is the young testosterone and adrenalin-fueled male (usually hiking solo) out to show the world that the warning signs don’t apply to him. So, when you see closure of a trail because of extreme heat, you are seeing a decision based on the best and not just the least. It is certainly not arbitrary.

The danger once temps top 90+ deg F has long been established. Back in 1947, the US military conducted experiments on soldiers to see how they react to the various dimensions of extreme exercise in desert environments (Adolph, E.F., and associates 1947. Physiology of Man in the Desert. New York: Interscience Publishers). Most of the experiments would be banned today as too dangerous to conduct. Many of the results form the basis of our current warnings.

Because the public trails are managed by the city/county, they are obliged to follow the known safety protocols. If not, they are subject to lawsuits by the very people/family who ignore the warnings and continue with their physical activity.

Here’s the latest CDC/NIOSH recommendations (all links below in public domain for free download):

Occupational Exposure to Heat and Hot Environments
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2016-106 ... PUB2016106

Nutritional Needs in Hot Environments:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2 ... 236233.pdf

The Heat Index calculator and chart are here:
https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_index

Emergency Services Report: 2018 Grand Canyon:
https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/manageme ... pliant.pdf

If you still want to pursue your outdoor adventures, AZ is a huge state. You are not required to stick to public trails. Strike out on your. Of course, if you go off trail getting a SAR response may be difficult. Also, don't sue me for telling you to strike out on your own.
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

@Canyonram
tldr
fyi. The decision regarding closing trails in Phoenix was made without regard to any of whatever you contributed above.
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

chumley wrote: fyi. The decision regarding closing trails in Phoenix was made without regard to any of whatever you contributed above.
Did you not read Thoreau's original article? You certainly didn't read all the material I posted. My posting went up at 8;56 and you're posting at 9:47. Here's from the original info:

"Effective July 16 to September 30, 2021: Use of trails on Camelback Mountain and Piestewa Peak will be restricted when the National Weather Service issues an Excessive Heat Watch or Warning."

Everything in my post discusses how the Excessive Heat Watch or Warning was developed. Were you out on the trail in 120+ deg F? It would explain the brain damage.
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by friendofThundergod »

@Canyonram

Ok in the last week you have accused me of being a big game hunter trolling forums to find trophy sheep and now the "young testosterone and adrenalin-fueled male" comment. Do you even read my triplogs bro? Or are you just a long winded forum lurker?

First of all, look at the deaths in the Canyon this summer, a bunch of unprepared gumbies and some elderly from a quick glance. None of them appear to meet your characterization of overzealous male adrenalin junkies. In fact, the last death on camelback was some first responder's Tinder date that he left alone to die on the mountain with no water on a day the trail was open and he was a city of Phoenix employee I might add. But don't let a few facts get in the way of your testosterone fueled male adrenaline junky narrative.

Also a big NO to closing trails or parks for heat. If its too hot for helicopters to fly, then don't fly them. In the same way its a bummer that they can't call up a bird in situations of inclement weather and rescues on the side of mountains during the winter, etc, the same logic should be applied to days that are too hot then. But no I will never support blanket closures to keep the stupid and unprepared safe. Are we going to start closing national parks on days it gets too cold? Maybe a blanket closure of Tonto NF this week because a few inches of rain are expected? The heat is here to stay, hikers, climbers, SAR and everyone else needs to adapt to it, or find new hobbies.

And enough with the cryptic warnings and sage advice about the Canyon. I quit keeping track of my miles below the rim when I went over 2,000 and I have climbed 40 summits in the Grand Canyon. Ill get you lost up there. Many of those hikes and climbs came on days the City of Phoenix would have had the park closed, if they had their way.

The last death at the Grand Canyon was some woman in her mid 50s from Ohio who died on the Bright Angel Trail, but ya lets close the backcountry when its hot to keep the adrenaline junkies out, absolute idiocy and no links talking about how dangerous it is when its warm are going to change my mind.
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

:sweat: :lol:
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

@friendofThundergod

Ok in the last week you have accused me of being a big game hunter trolling forums to find trophy sheep and now the "young testosterone and adrenalin-fueled male" comment. Do you even read my triplogs bro? Or are you just a long winded forum lurker?

Please take a look at my response to you in regards to your question about Rocky Mt. Bighorn. I said “IF you are a trophy hunter . . . I gave some advice on how to get in touch with a guide and also gave advice on how to find out where Bighorn are showing up this hunting season. What is wrong with legal hunting? I have hunted and fished since I was old enough to tag along. I never accused you of trolling the forum to find trophy sheep. I did send a private email to another forum member in regards to posting about Gila Monsters. These unique reptiles are high on the ‘Herp Collector’ list and will go for $2000/piece. In my private email, I did mention your question about Rocky Mt. Sheep as the type of question that would be posed by someone looking to poach a trophy Bighorn—but I provided an answer to you IF that was your goal and I gave it to you in the open forum----IF you are a trophy hunter. If you are NOT a trophy hunter, then the trolling concern and poaching DOES NOT APPLY to you. If I thought your were trolling in order to poach a bighorn, I would have told you so straight up in the open forum. I don't recall if you commented at all about Gila Monsters----so how does that private email to a different person, different animal end up being about you? Were you contacted by this third person and took my warning to her about Gila Monsters to be about you????

First of all, look at the deaths in the Canyon this summer, a bunch of unprepared gumbies and some elderly from a quick glance. None of them appear to meet your characterization of overzealous male adrenalin junkies. In fact, the last death on camelback was some first responder's Tinder date that he left alone to die on the mountain with no water on a day the trail was open and he was a city of Phoenix employee I might add. But don't let a few facts get in the way of your testosterone fueled male adrenaline junky narrative.

Please re-read my comment about testosterone fueled male adrenalin junky—I said “At Grand Canyon, one of the most frequent heat-related victims needing assistance is the young testosterone and adrenalin-fueled male (usually hiking solo) out to show the world that the warning signs don’t apply to him.” NEEDING ASSISTANCE. NOTHING ABOUT DEATHS IN THAT SENTENCE. That observations wasn’t about you. It was from a flyer handout from NPS. How would you describe your anger generated when you have misread my statement??? Looks like one from a testosterone fueled male adrenalin junky. I follow the death tally on hiking trails—which is one reason I tried to provide some info regarding Excessive Heat Warnings and the rationale why the city is closing trails. Ignoring science is a common problem these days. As is entitlement and temper tantrums when someone provides the science that is contrary to what you want to do.

Also a big NO to closing trails or parks for heat. If its too hot for helicopters to fly, then don't fly them. In the same way its a bummer that they can't call up a bird in situations of inclement weather and rescues on the side of mountains during the winter, etc, the same logic should be applied to days that are too hot then. But no I will never support blanket closures to keep the stupid and unprepared safe. Are we going to start closing national parks on days it gets too cold? Maybe a blanket closure of Tonto NF this week because a few inches of rain are expected? The heat is here to stay, hikers, climbers, SAR and everyone else needs to adapt to it, or find new hobbies.

You are blowing up the issue into something bigger than the original concern. Thoreau’s original posting was in regards to the city of Phoenix looking to close 3 trails when temps got over 105 deg F. You are having a temper tantrum and including the National Parks, Tonto NF. The Fire Fighter Union rational: “12 members of the fire department’s Technical Rescue Team were sent home for heat-related injuries following multiple mountain rescues on June 16. Temperatures that day reached 115 degrees, according to the National Weather Service. Two firefighters were hospitalized that same day with acute renal failure because of dehydration and exhaustion experienced during the rescues, according to a statement from the union.” I guess your answer is to continue requiring SAR to ‘adapt or find a new hobby. At those temps, there is no adaptation. Do you understand the Heat Index at all? As to your big NO—your opinion doesn’t count when it endangers those SAR who you suggest find another job. You are welcome to kill yourself in extreme heat but don’t expect SAR to endanger their lives because you feel entitled and throw a temper tantrum and shout NO. It is all about ME, ME, ME.

And enough with the cryptic warnings and sage advice about the Canyon. I quit keeping track of my miles below the rim when I went over 2,000 and I have climbed 40 summits in the Grand Canyon. Ill get you lost up there. Many of those hikes and climbs came on days the City of Phoenix would have had the park closed, if they had their way.

Good choice to stop counting miles hiked. No one cares. . . for your tally or mine. I would never hike with you. I prefer hiking partners who know how to read and with enough sense to stay out of dangerous heat.

The last death at the Grand Canyon was some woman in her mid 50s from Ohio who died on the Bright Angel Trail, but ya lets close the backcountry when its hot to keep the adrenaline junkies out, absolute idiocy and no links talking about how dangerous it is when its warm are going to change my mind

Put that on your tombstone. . . nothing is going to change my mind.
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

:sweat: :lol:
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by friendofThundergod »

@Canyonram

Until you learn how to properly use the quote feature and reply with less than 5,000 words, I am not responding.
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by rustyshackleford135 »

Canyonram wrote: Aug 30 2021 11:09 am @friendofThundergod

Ok in the last week you have accused me of being a big game hunter trolling forums to find trophy sheep and now the "young testosterone and adrenalin-fueled male" comment. Do you even read my triplogs bro? Or are you just a long winded forum lurker?

Please take a look at my response to you in regards to your question about Rocky Mt. Bighorn. I said “IF you are a trophy hunter . . . I gave some advice on how to get in touch with a guide and also gave advice on how to find out where Bighorn are showing up this hunting season. What is wrong with legal hunting? I have hunted and fished since I was old enough to tag along. I never accused you of trolling the forum to find trophy sheep. I did send a private email to another forum member in regards to posting about Gila Monsters. These unique reptiles are high on the ‘Herp Collector’ list and will go for $2000/piece. In my private email, I did mention your question about Rocky Mt. Sheep as the type of question that would be posed by someone looking to poach a trophy Bighorn—but I provided an answer to you IF that was your goal and I gave it to you in the open forum----IF you are a trophy hunter. If you are NOT a trophy hunter, then the trolling concern and poaching DOES NOT APPLY to you. If I thought your were trolling in order to poach a bighorn, I would have told you so straight up in the open forum. I don't recall if you commented at all about Gila Monsters----so how does that private email to a different person, different animal end up being about you? Were you contacted by this third person and took my warning to her about Gila Monsters to be about you????

First of all, look at the deaths in the Canyon this summer, a bunch of unprepared gumbies and some elderly from a quick glance. None of them appear to meet your characterization of overzealous male adrenalin junkies. In fact, the last death on camelback was some first responder's Tinder date that he left alone to die on the mountain with no water on a day the trail was open and he was a city of Phoenix employee I might add. But don't let a few facts get in the way of your testosterone fueled male adrenaline junky narrative.

Please re-read my comment about testosterone fueled male adrenalin junky—I said “At Grand Canyon, one of the most frequent heat-related victims needing assistance is the young testosterone and adrenalin-fueled male (usually hiking solo) out to show the world that the warning signs don’t apply to him.” NEEDING ASSISTANCE. NOTHING ABOUT DEATHS IN THAT SENTENCE. That observations wasn’t about you. It was from a flyer handout from NPS. How would you describe your anger generated when you have misread my statement??? Looks like one from a testosterone fueled male adrenalin junky. I follow the death tally on hiking trails—which is one reason I tried to provide some info regarding Excessive Heat Warnings and the rationale why the city is closing trails. Ignoring science is a common problem these days. As is entitlement and temper tantrums when someone provides the science that is contrary to what you want to do.

Also a big NO to closing trails or parks for heat. If its too hot for helicopters to fly, then don't fly them. In the same way its a bummer that they can't call up a bird in situations of inclement weather and rescues on the side of mountains during the winter, etc, the same logic should be applied to days that are too hot then. But no I will never support blanket closures to keep the stupid and unprepared safe. Are we going to start closing national parks on days it gets too cold? Maybe a blanket closure of Tonto NF this week because a few inches of rain are expected? The heat is here to stay, hikers, climbers, SAR and everyone else needs to adapt to it, or find new hobbies.

You are blowing up the issue into something bigger than the original concern. Thoreau’s original posting was in regards to the city of Phoenix looking to close 3 trails when temps got over 105 deg F. You are having a temper tantrum and including the National Parks, Tonto NF. The Fire Fighter Union rational: “12 members of the fire department’s Technical Rescue Team were sent home for heat-related injuries following multiple mountain rescues on June 16. Temperatures that day reached 115 degrees, according to the National Weather Service. Two firefighters were hospitalized that same day with acute renal failure because of dehydration and exhaustion experienced during the rescues, according to a statement from the union.” I guess your answer is to continue requiring SAR to ‘adapt or find a new hobby. At those temps, there is no adaptation. Do you understand the Heat Index at all? As to your big NO—your opinion doesn’t count when it endangers those SAR who you suggest find another job. You are welcome to kill yourself in extreme heat but don’t expect SAR to endanger their lives because you feel entitled and throw a temper tantrum and shout NO. It is all about ME, ME, ME.

And enough with the cryptic warnings and sage advice about the Canyon. I quit keeping track of my miles below the rim when I went over 2,000 and I have climbed 40 summits in the Grand Canyon. Ill get you lost up there. Many of those hikes and climbs came on days the City of Phoenix would have had the park closed, if they had their way.

Good choice to stop counting miles hiked. No one cares. . . for your tally or mine. I would never hike with you. I prefer hiking partners who know how to read and with enough sense to stay out of dangerous heat.

The last death at the Grand Canyon was some woman in her mid 50s from Ohio who died on the Bright Angel Trail, but ya lets close the backcountry when its hot to keep the adrenaline junkies out, absolute idiocy and no links talking about how dangerous it is when its warm are going to change my mind

Put that on your tombstone. . . nothing is going to change my mind.
A whole lot of words when "I'm a park employee who wants to limit access to public land so I have to do less work at my job" would have worked
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nonot
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by nonot »

@friendofThundergod

At least for now they are not talking of closing the trails permanently.

" I can't wait for those gates to go in at the top of the Grand Canyon to prevent hiking below the rim on the 100 or so days of year a heat advisory is issued. :lol:"

FYI there is the permit system they are debating applying to all GC trails (for every day, not just hot days), and whether to apply day hiking permit access to everyone on the trails, or just (an an example) only those that pass the 1.5 mile rest area. I'm pretty sure that the GC park rangers are tired of daily rescues of the unprepared flip-flop and one half quart water bottle toting crowd. It isn't entirely heat related, but is in the general theme of limiting access because the lowest common denominator and their lack of planning, which results in too many rescues. (e.g. Why statistically, Bright Angel trail is the most dangerous in the world.)

Edit: There are probably better links out there, but discussion of a day hike permit system dates back to at least around 2016, as can be found on pages 31-32 of this study:
https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/manageme ... ly2016.pdf
http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php

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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

In the name of public safety, I hope any future Grand Canyon policies that intend to keep visitors safe include the total elimination of the [ Rock Squirrel ] , as it is well documented to be the leading cause of injury to canyon visitors.
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

nonot
Good post and link.

The backcountry NPS staff that I have talked to are conflicted on the issue. As you point out, a good number are upset/angry over the many carry-out rescues off the BA; others think that the Canyon should be accessible and not 'dumbed-down' to the least among us. There's a lot of things that NPS could do with the growing cost devoted to carry-outs. Others consider the many people who travel to the Canyon on a 'once-in-a-lifetime' trip and who may never have another chance to hike below the rim. SAR staff rushing down the trail for rescue/assistance do indeed fall victim to the extreme heat---especially when they do it several times a day.

I can't imagine how they will be able to control a busload of gung-ho tourists anxious to head down the BA. Wouldn't want to be the person at the trailhead who is allowing a prepared backpacker with a permit to go through but also is telling 45 people in flip-flops and no water bottles full of entitlement that they can't go down to the River and back. Perhaps having to walk over the BCO to pick up a 'day-hike' permit will deter some---but it may have the tour bus simply stopping at the BCO and 45 people all standing in line inside the BCO office. Multiply that by the millions of people who show up on the rim---yikes.

The problem looks like one of accessibility to the trailhead. The BA is now an on-ramp to a Disneyland ride. Compare that to trails like Grandview (with no shuttle bus service and a rough rocky start to the trail down), Hermit's (the trailhead is a good distance away from the Hermit Rest snack bar and tucked away behind a parking lot), and the Tanner Trail (people get lost in the parking lot trying to find the trailhead or don't even know one exists.)

Certainly no easy answers either at GC or the city trails in Phoenix.
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chumley
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by chumley »

Canyonram wrote:no easy answers
Pardon my confusion but you stating this surprises me. You have explained the scientific basis supporting limiting human activity based on heat. I’m interested in the data points that cause you to now feel conflicted on this topic.
33s over 45s
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Canyonram
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by Canyonram »

@chumley
chumley wrote:Pardon my confusion but you stating this surprises me. You have explained the scientific basis supporting limiting human activity based on heat. I’m interested in the data points that cause you to now feel conflicted on this topic.
There's no easy answers for the NPS. They are dealing with visitors from around the world and are having to make a judgement on a person without any knowledge of their fitness level---this is especially true when the heat index considerations are on the border between 'high' and 'severe' and 'moderate' and 'high'. I think it is also the source of the anger from those who regularly exercise in a hot climate who are having their access to a favorite trail limited---they routinely exercise when the HI is 'high' and now see their trail access denied because the HI is falling in in the 'high' zone. Notice that the Phoenix Fire Department's petition was for trail closure when the HI was equal to 105 deg F. That magic number falls into the 'Extreme' zone regardless of the relative humidity. For those readings, I agree that the trail should be closed. It is risking the health and safety of everyone including first-responders. Those heat index numbers are based on the science over many years of study and are not arbitrary numbers. On that point I am not conflicted---close the trail and protect everyone even those who feel entitled to ignore medical science. GC NPS tries to handle that with the generic advice to hike in the early morning and late afternoon with the idea that the HI is below the 105 deg Extreme level.

Here's a convenient Heat Index calculator that is used by athletic programs across the country to determine if their athletes should be out in the heat. You can plug in your zip code and the calculator will take into account the local temp and relative humidity and tell you where are locally regarding the HI

http://archive.sdhsaa.com/Athletics/Hea ... Calculator

A lot of high school coaches are using this calculator to determine when to hold practice. You'll see the AZ Cardinals flip practice time to avoid the dangerous HI.

There are some long term effects of Heat stroke should you not get care in a timely manner. This is why SAR is really put against the wall when they are responding to a person down on the trail with heat-illness symptoms. They will rush to aid the person, putting themselves in harm's way while doing so.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20353581
"I shot a werewolf once. But by the time I went to retrieve it, it changed into my neighbor's dog." D. Schruete
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LindaAnn
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Re: Union wants to close some trails because "ermagherd so warm"

Post by LindaAnn »

I can’t believe I’ve survived four decades of outdoor activities without ever looking at a heat index calculator, not even once. And I never will, because I don’t need a number spit out from some calculator that doesn’t even know my conditioning level or current physical state.

It’s shocking really, only using the old school method of curtailing activity when it feels too warm. I wonder what the magic number was the time I spent most of the day outside playing basketball with my friends when the high happened to hit 122.
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