flume closing for good (big changes) this year!!

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pfredricks
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flume closing for good (big changes) this year!!

Post by pfredricks » Dec 02 2003 4:29 am

Apparently I must have had my head buried in the sand.
I didnt realize that childs/irving power plants were getting shut down and the fossil springs were going to be restored to their natural creekbed.
I havent heard anyone here mention specifics, but the forest service has a few DRAMATIC changes in mind for the area.
Read info about it here. What do you think?
THey may ban camping and fires in the area.
Dramatic changes due by December of 2004.
I havent done the trip from this side, but was reading about this place and wanted to pass this info along.
http://www.aps.com/my_community/StoryAr ... ve_18.html
and
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/ ... i15092.htm
and
http://www.rmrs.nau.edu/lab/4302/fc/
"I'd feel better if we had some crampons. Oh, what the hell, let's go for it..." — Common climbing last words.

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pfredricks
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Post by pfredricks » Dec 02 2003 6:16 am

oh, and that also means that the waterfalls/riparian environ. at the Verde Hot Springs below the plant will be drying up
"I'd feel better if we had some crampons. Oh, what the hell, let's go for it..." — Common climbing last words.

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Nighthiker
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Post by Nighthiker » Dec 02 2003 7:05 am

The flume was a diversion, taking water out of Fossil Creek. I will miss the little lake.

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azrocks
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Post by azrocks » Dec 02 2003 10:09 am

".. an additional 14 miles of wetland ecosystem valuable for wildlife habitat and creek-side recreation."
This is really good news, as long as it doesn't become real estate for Strawberry yuppies. The map shows a road all the way through Fossil Creek to the Verde river, so it could easily become another Oak Creek. Is that road driveable ?

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montezumawell
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Re: flume closing for good (big changes) this year!!

Post by montezumawell » Dec 02 2003 6:27 pm

pfredricks wrote:Apparently I must have had my head buried in the sand.
Well, at least you admit it.

After being intimately involved in public lands mgmt issues for far more than two decades, I can say that the ONLY time I truly cried real tears was when the decision "went down" on Childs. It was SUCH A SCAM.

It is still such a scam, It will always and truly reign as one of the greatest scams in Arizona history. IF and ONLY IF you knew the whole story, maybe then you would realize how YOU and EVERYONE else in Arizona got literally "sold down the river" by the decision to shut down the CHilds hydro plant. Someday, (hopefully) some doctoral-level scholar will expose the "sell out" for what really happened and will then have all the footnotes and bibliographical resouces annotated within his/her document.
It's going to take that level of scholarship to prove to the Arizona people just how badly they got screwed on this "deal." It will forever reign in my mind as one of the worst public lands mgmt decisions EVER foisted upon an unsuspecting and immensely uninformed population. To say that this one was hideous and STUNK to High Heaven would be a colossal understantment.

If YOU, you who are reading this note, think that the deciscion to close this facility is "a good thing," as Martha would say, then we would have to say that YOU, who would think such a thing, would be deluded, delusional and defunct as a "critical thinker." If you think this is a good thing, our sympathies go out to you. Your mind is disfunctional. Good luck.

OK, that said, I have long since stopped "looking back." There ain't nuttin' that can be done 'bout this fiasco. So, please, don't ask me to explain. I know what I know and anybody that knows me and what I know, knows that I know what I know. Nuf said. Happy Holidays.

j

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pfredricks
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Post by pfredricks » Dec 02 2003 7:32 pm

No debate necessary. What's done is done.
But if you enjoy that area, and havent seen it. OR love it how it is, go enjoy it before it is too late.
There may be RV parking at your favorite campsite soon!!!!

That is really the point.
"I'd feel better if we had some crampons. Oh, what the hell, let's go for it..." — Common climbing last words.

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Rodney
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Post by Rodney » Dec 02 2003 8:05 pm

In response to pfredricks' reply:

Not to get off topic....which I would never do, has anyone checked the birthday list for today?? :D

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Glitter
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Post by Glitter » Dec 03 2003 8:32 am

I heard about this over a year ago and wasn't sure exactly what it would do to the area. What will happen to the area above the dam? I guess I better get up there a few more times before this happens.
Keep on truckin'
-Chris

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woopitup
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Re: flume closing for good (big changes) this year!!

Post by woopitup » Dec 03 2003 10:42 am

montezumawell wrote:
YOU, who would think such a thing, would be deluded, delusional and defunct as a "critical thinker." If you think this is a good thing, our sympathies go out to you. Your mind is disfunctional. Good luck.

OK, that said, I have long since stopped "looking back." There ain't nuttin' that can be done 'bout this fiasco. So, please, don't ask me to explain. I know what I know and anybody that knows me and what I know, knows that I know what I know. Nuf said. j
[/quote]

________________________________

hmm, Montezumawell, I always find it intriguing to read the views of others and I've always found it just as interesting to recognize the manner, respect and tone in which others chose to communicate. It is obvious that you are passionate about this subject. Which inherently makes me crave to inquire of you more on this topic. However, you have asked us ALL not too. I find it unfortunate that your commentary was so flavorful but offered little to no substance on the issue itself.

Pete thanks for the webpages attached this subject. I read each of them and it has certainly made me want to know more. Wish me luck in my "critical thinking" skills as I embark on this quest for knowledge....

woopitup

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montezumawell
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Post by montezumawell » Dec 03 2003 6:32 pm

we stand by our words--no apologies.
Happy trails!

j

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Rodney
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Re: flume closing for good (big changes) this year!!

Post by Rodney » Dec 03 2003 7:39 pm

montezumawell wrote:If YOU, you who are reading this note, think that the deciscion to close this facility is "a good thing," as Martha would say, then we would have to say that YOU, who would think such a thing, would be deluded, delusional and defunct as a "critical thinker." If you think this is a good thing, our sympathies go out to you. Your mind is disfunctional. Good luck.
A forum is a place to discuss views and opinions, therefore, not a place to force your views and opinions on others. The above statement is not narrow minded...it's closed minded and has no place in an open forum. I guess the burning question might be...in a mind that closed, how do the words escape in the first place???

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion and you are not dysfunctional if you disagree...which is not to say, you are by any means functional just by agreeing either! :lol:

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Daryl
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Post by Daryl » Dec 04 2003 11:29 am

Opinions are like %#$@!&$'s. We all have them and they all stink.

I don't know enough about the issue to have an opinion yet. So basically are these the facts?
They are going to tear down the flume and restore fossil creek.
After that it they are going to "improve" the area with camping and picnic areas.
It also sounds like they want to make the old power plant a museum.

So far I see the Cons are:
A lot more traffic to the area
Removing history
Lost power source, but that's already gone

Pros:
Restoration of fossil creek/canyon

Look at the bright side J&S, with all the traffic, the shenanigans will probably cease at the Childs camp area.
“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid”
John Wayne as Sergeant John M. Stryker, USMC in “The Sands of Iwo Jima”

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mttgilbert
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Post by mttgilbert » Dec 04 2003 3:18 pm

If YOU, you who are reading this note, think that the deciscion to close this facility is "a good thing," as Martha would say, then we would have to say that YOU, who would think such a thing, would be deluded, delusional and defunct as a "critical thinker." If you think this is a good thing, our sympathies go out to you. Your mind is disfunctional.
I assume this was a typo, but you never know until you ask. You did mean "functional" right? Otherwise if we disagree with you we are "deluded, delusional, and defunct" and if agree with you we are "disfunctional".

It seems to me, from reading those articles, that shutting down the plant is actually a good thing. It will restore an area to its natural conditions (I can't imagine thats a bad thing is it?), the power plant, according to APS is no longer cost effective (that means that it no longer produces enough power to keep up with other facilities, so you can't say someone is being denied of electricity), there would be more public interest in the area and therefore more regulation (which means no more of that nudism and other "raunchy" behavior). Frankly I can't imagine what would be BAD about closing the plant. Are there 1000's of jobs that will be lost? The only thing I can think of is that somehow the additional traffic will disturb the eagle habitats in the area, but since they are federally protected I can't imagine they don't have a plan in place for that.

That being said. I don't appreciate being called a "deluded, delusional, and defunct critical thinker". Matter of fact, I am about to graduate with a degree in philosophy ( by the way, thats the study and development of critical thinking and critical thinking skills). I haven't got this far by being defunct. If you want to disagree fine, tell me why. Don't just resort to name calling to distract from what you know (or maybe what you don't know) about a given situation.

(by the way, if you really stand by what you say, no apologies, then why not leave your previous posts, or do you only sometimes stand by what you say, no apologies?)
Last edited by mttgilbert on Dec 04 2003 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cogito ergo ambulo cum sacculo
-Matt Gilbert

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Abe
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Post by Abe » Dec 04 2003 3:52 pm

:?:

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ajcanable
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Post by ajcanable » Dec 04 2003 4:49 pm

matt gilbert wrote:[
(by the way, if you really stand by what you say, no apologies, then why not leave your previous posts, or do you only sometimes stand by what you say, no apologies?)


"Touche!" matt gilbert 8)

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azrocks
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Post by azrocks » Dec 04 2003 5:41 pm

I looked up the history, and it seems like a successful campaign to close a plant that produced a trivial amount of power and did a lot of damage to the environment. I realize that recreation is also detrimental, but rarely to the same degree. In what way is this a scam ? Do you feel that the plant had historical value ? This is obviously a very emotional issue for you Montezumaswell, but couldn't you give us to some information?

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azhiker96
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Post by azhiker96 » Dec 04 2003 5:47 pm

montezumawell wrote:we stand by our words--no apologies.
Happy trails!

j
Hmm, If I understood the words correctly they were in essence;

you know all the issues about closing the plant, it was a terrible decision to close the plant, anyone who thinks it's a good thing is deluded, and you won't share your knowledge about the issue.

Okey Dokey. Nothing to discuss here. Recken I'll just take a hike, er, I mean go on a hike.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it."
~ Mark Twain

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montezumawell
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Post by montezumawell » Dec 04 2003 6:23 pm

azhiker96 wrote:

Okey Dokey. Nothing to discuss here. Recken I'll just take a hike, er, I mean go on a hike.
Yep, you got that one right!

J&S

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ROGER
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Post by ROGER » Dec 05 2003 9:42 am

Mwell wrote
please, don't ask me to explain.
Why?????

Please tell us why you feel the way you do about this.

Unless you can explain your reasons for critisizing those who may think closing the plant may be a good thing, then maybe you shouldn't verbally attack those individuals. "YOU"

Just my $.02.

Roger

PS - I have never been there and don't have an opinion wether closing the plant is a good thing or not. My response is only in reference to criticising someone's belief without explaining why.

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ghoster
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Post by ghoster » Dec 05 2003 10:22 am

OK I am curious, why is this "ripoff" any bigger or worse than inumerable others perpetrated on the public. No, I don't have an opinion about whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. CHange is going to happen whether by nature, or man. Choosing which we prefer doesn't stop them. But, I would like to be enlightened, and not left in my usual state of delusion, or funk, or non medicated anxiety. Information is appreciated and viewpoints are meant to be shared.
HavingfuninAZ

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