flume closing for good (big changes) this year!!

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pfredricks
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flume closing for good (big changes) this year!!

Post by pfredricks » Dec 02 2003 4:29 am

Apparently I must have had my head buried in the sand.
I didnt realize that childs/irving power plants were getting shut down and the fossil springs were going to be restored to their natural creekbed.
I havent heard anyone here mention specifics, but the forest service has a few DRAMATIC changes in mind for the area.
Read info about it here. What do you think?
THey may ban camping and fires in the area.
Dramatic changes due by December of 2004.
I havent done the trip from this side, but was reading about this place and wanted to pass this info along.
http://www.aps.com/my_community/StoryAr ... ve_18.html
and
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/ ... i15092.htm
and
http://www.rmrs.nau.edu/lab/4302/fc/
"I'd feel better if we had some crampons. Oh, what the hell, let's go for it..." — Common climbing last words.

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AK
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Post by AK » Dec 05 2003 12:36 pm

In response to montezumawell's reply: :?: ????????? :?:
Aaron

"Can't think of a good signature quote" - Me

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azhiker96
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Post by azhiker96 » Dec 05 2003 2:59 pm

In response to AK's reply:

Hi Aaron, Mwell has already said he doesn't care to discuss the issue. I think we should respect that. If he cares to add anything of substance he will.

Concerning the closure, I found this link on the forest service web site,
http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coconino/nepa/2 ... osal.shtml
It looks like they will be limiting access to limit impact on the area. I haven't found out which groups were calling for the closure of the Childs plant. These changes seem to fit an environmentalist bill in that they will restore a natural area and limit human impact in the future.
I doubt that APS's decision to close the power plant was made due to their concern for the stream, fish, and wildlife. It's more likely that the aging plant would need expensive renovation to continue to operate. They probably got a good tax writeoff by shutting it down. :wink:
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it."
~ Mark Twain

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AK
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Post by AK » Dec 05 2003 3:56 pm

I've never been to the area but am glad to hear that it will be restored back to its natural state.
Aaron

"Can't think of a good signature quote" - Me

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Rodney
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Post by Rodney » Dec 05 2003 6:17 pm

azhiker96 wrote:In response to AK's reply:

Hi Aaron, Mwell has already said he doesn't care to discuss the issue. I think we should respect that. If he cares to add anything of substance he will.
Ok...all those of you who think Mwell deserves respect in this thread, stand on your head and count to 1000. :lol: I still like the way it was in the good ole days where respect had to be earned.

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montezumawell
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Post by montezumawell » Dec 05 2003 6:21 pm

Hey,this is a topic "with legs." It's been up near the top for days. Keeps getting kicked back "up there." You gotta kinda wonder if such would be the case without our opinions. From our point of view, your opinions only reinforce our original notions. Most of you are just a bunch of uninformed "urbanites" who have no clue about life in rural Arizona. We welcome all of your opinions. All of your sweet and affectionate words about "our" opinions are music to our ears. Please keep your kind comments coming as they provide warmth on the season's cool evenings!

Hike On! And VIVA HAZ--It's a COMMUNITY! Warts & all.
J&S

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boxerjoey
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Post by boxerjoey » Dec 05 2003 6:50 pm

Mwell,

It is really unfair to the people who participate in this forum to criticize their "urban" opinions without elucidating your own "rural" vision. Hiding behind a "you'll never get it because you live outside of rural Arizona" facade can and should be interpreted as an indication that you do not have a cogent argument to present.

I imagine I speak for several others here who would very much like to hear your opinions on this matter, but you refuse to offer them in a childish display that only reinforces that 1) you do not care to be informative about the subject and 2) you are stubborn. Neither is particularly becoming of someone who posts on a forum designed to educate and stimulate discussion.

I am disappointed with your posts on this subject.

-J

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pfredricks
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Post by pfredricks » Dec 05 2003 7:00 pm

To my fellow HAZers
I initially chose not to respond because the comments from the offensive party are so totally ridiculous. It is laughable. It reminds me of the little kids in elementary school that so crave attention, they act out constantly. Clearly the HAZers recognize this, "Hey look at me" attitude. Unbelieveably classless and childish.


There is zero point to the comments other than to offend and bait other HAZers. Clearly this person is without the wisdom and ability to form a complete thought or a persuasive discussion.
Debate isnt tough. First of all, have a point. Without that there isnt anything to discuss. The rest is just a diversion from a real discussion. One of the first things to do when you have a weak (or non-existant ) arguement is to stray as much as possible from the point at hand. That seems to be the case here.
When one person thinks their opinion is so perfect that others' with a conflicting opinion are branded "delusional" it borders on psychological diagnosis. Not suprisingly, these folks have shunned the urban environment as they are likely not able to function in a social setting. QED with the posts here.

I think this is the perfect example of "flaming" I am suprised that the moderator has not taken steps to remove such silly and offensive remarks. This flaming is truly without a point, without merit, substance, and does a fine job of distracting from the discussion at hand.
Judging by the responses, fellow HAZers don't appreciate and should not have to tolerate the very juvenile behavior. This post began as really information only to share this major change that others may not have been aware of.
Arizona is a big state with lots of land. Who realistically can keep up with the goings on of the whole state. That's why we share. I hope that the information made you think, I hope it gives you the chance to see the area before it changes.

I find the questions and replies from the other HAZers to be well thought out, balanced, and educated. To me it is so striking that one poster in particular has shown to be exactly what they assert the "urbanites" to be. We can see it, too bad you can't . But, that is the thing with such disorders.
I did my best to stay above it. I hope the HAZers understand my reply. It had to be said.

The teacher should have sent this person to the corner by now. Joe?

Regards-
-Pete
"I'd feel better if we had some crampons. Oh, what the hell, let's go for it..." — Common climbing last words.

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HikerInGilbert
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Post by HikerInGilbert » Dec 06 2003 7:59 am

OMG people...

Has everyone forgotten the little "tete a tete" that the nudist thread created? Has anyone gone back to read some of the comments in the "bad moderator" thread? That one kind of morphed into a "edit, no edit" debate, but the original context can be read on the first page.

It's amazing how a little change of sides can alter people's views in a situation.

Here is another perfect example of "let it die" in my opinion. The plant and Flume are going away. End of story. Time to deal with it the best we all can.

Time to go hike Fossil Creek a few times I'd say. And bring a camera...
_______________________________

Tom 8)

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Rodney
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Post by Rodney » Dec 06 2003 11:41 am

HikerInGilbert wrote:Here is another perfect example of "let it die" in my opinion. The plant and Flume are going away. End of story. Time to deal with it the best we all can.
Hey Tom...have you been sleeping for the past 4 days? Try reading back through the thread a couple of times and if the root of the problem continues to escape you, PM me and I'll explain it to you. On second thought, change of plans...moving to Snick'sville seems like the best way to "deal with it".

Rastros felices a usted hasta que satisfacemos otra vez! 8)

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HikerInGilbert
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Post by HikerInGilbert » Dec 06 2003 12:43 pm

Rodney wrote:Rastros felices a usted hasta que satisfacemos otra vez! 8)
Patearé su como la próxima vez yo lo veo...

:rollH:
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Tom 8)

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Sredfield
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Post by Sredfield » Dec 06 2003 3:28 pm

I recommend this thread be deleted, it isn't "improving the silence" anymore.

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Abe
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Post by Abe » Dec 06 2003 4:54 pm

HikerInGilbert wrote:
Rodney wrote:Rastros felices a usted hasta que satisfacemos otra vez! 8)
Patearé su como la próxima vez yo lo veo...

:rollH:
:?: Say what?

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montezumawell
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Happy Days Are Here Again

Post by montezumawell » Dec 06 2003 5:53 pm

Ok...all those of you who think Mwell deserves respect in this thread, stand on your head and count to 1000. I still like the way it was in the good ole days where respect had to be earned.


Hey, this is the kinda stuff that "makes our day." Quotes like this one let is all hang out and we are SOOO happy to see and read them. In our original post, we presented the scenario that someday someone would let you all know "the "rest of the story," as Paul Harvey is wont to say.

For those of you who have stated that they wish we could tell our side of the story, all we can say it that we gave our promise to certain people that we would not repeat "their" story. I guess you would have to know our position during that time frame.

AND, we would like to add, if Rodney or anyone else would care to look into our background, they would see we received the Morris K. Udall Award from The Nature Conservancy AND were honored at a special ceremony by The Yavapai County Board of Supervisors for our natural resource conservation activities. They would see lots of things--thing they OBVIOUSLY do not wish to see! Maybe they are myopic. Our record of public service speaks for itself and has been suitably honored and respected. We are grateful and appreciative.

We get a kick out of reading comments like those from Rodney.

Thanks, Rodney, for finally showing your true colors. Right ON!

Yes, we wish this post would be deleted because none of you know what you are talking about. You are simply repeating (parroting) the "company line" direct from APS. HA! HA! Someday soon you're all going to be very sad that you fell victim to such egregious lies.

When the "deal" finally "comes down," you won't be able to get within miles of the Hot Springs. You won't have a road worth a damn anywhere near Childs. And you won't be able to river raft the Verde anymore unless you put in at Camp Verde prepared to go all the way to Sheep Bridge or beyond. Yes, there are PROFOUND results of the misguided sell out by APS on this sad chapter of Arizona History.

It will take some scholarly research and some thorough "peer review" to validate what I say here. But there is no doubt whatsoever that you will all finally know how you were "sold down the river." Lock, stock and penstock.

j

Happy Trails
j

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mttgilbert
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Re: Happy Days Are Here Again

Post by mttgilbert » Dec 06 2003 8:22 pm

In response to montezumawell's reply:
When the "deal" finally "comes down," you won't be able to get within miles of the Hot Springs. You won't have a road worth a pumpkin anywhere near Childs. And you won't be able to river raft the Verde anymore unless you put in at Camp Verde prepared to go all the way to Sheep Bridge or beyond. Yes, there are PROFOUND results of the misguided sell out by APS on this sad chapter of Arizona History.
consequences. thats all we were after. WHY is it a bad thing. now you've answered that. thank you.

since I'm an "uninformed urbanite" I might not be able to appreciate the full consequences of what's going on at childs but I can say this: I'm still pretty sure that its better that its closing. So what if I won't be able to go there easily. Maybe its better if our access is thoughrouly limited. Its been said more than once (possibly even by you monte) that its the volume of people in a given area that make the area less desirable. If closing access to that area manages to preserve it for that much longer, I say GOOD. maybe we won't get to see this beautiful area completely despoiled in our lifetimes. Maybe future generations will get to see it also. I don't know but it seems to me that from a "ruralite" point of view (please correct me if I'm wrong) restoring an area to its original condition and then limiting access (thereby keeping it pristine) should be a good thing. I'm really sorry that you guys feel slighted that you won't be able to easily access those waters for recreation. But from what I know of you (zuma), you could probably out-boat any of us on any given day. I'm sure you will still enjoy your (extra long) treks down the verde. And you won't even have to put up with all of us "urbanites" invading your space right?
Cogito ergo ambulo cum sacculo
-Matt Gilbert

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Glitter
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Post by Glitter » Dec 06 2003 8:28 pm

Harumph!
Keep on truckin'
-Chris

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jeremy77777
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Post by jeremy77777 » Dec 07 2003 10:58 am

All I will say is, here comes the land developers....drooling. :pois:
Oh Be Wise, Need I Say More?
- Jeremy

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ROGER
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Post by ROGER » Dec 07 2003 8:35 pm

Mzuma wrote
For those of you who have stated that they wish we could tell our side of the story, all we can say it that we gave our promise to certain people that we would not repeat "their" story. I guess you would have to know our position during that time frame.
Is this a joke??
Mzuma,
If you are unable to support your opinion then it appears you have nothing else to say.

I say we end this "conversation" as it appears to be going no where.

Roger

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Daryl
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Post by Daryl » Dec 07 2003 9:03 pm

I heard they are going to make the area a nudist camp!
“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid”
John Wayne as Sergeant John M. Stryker, USMC in “The Sands of Iwo Jima”

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mttgilbert
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Post by mttgilbert » Dec 07 2003 9:19 pm

I think its time to get this topic back on track. I think this could be an informative and valuable discussion. Lets here what everyones opinions are about the issue at hand. Forget the zumas posts. if they can't contribute or you don't like what they do contribute ignore them. We keep accusing them of being childish, well, we're just as bad if we cater to them. I'm just as guilty as anyone else, don't get me wrong. I just hear a lot of clamor to end the topic and I think that would be a loss because it doesn't have to be so controversial. I would really like to hear others opinions about this.

So montezumawell's posts aside, what do you think about the decommission of the power plant and the restoration of the surrounding areas?
Cogito ergo ambulo cum sacculo
-Matt Gilbert

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sherileeaz
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Post by sherileeaz » Dec 07 2003 10:00 pm

matt gilbert wrote:I think its time to get this topic back on track. I think this could be an informative and valuable discussion. Lets here what everyones opinions are about the issue at hand. ... I would really like to hear others opinions about this. what do you think about the decommission of the power plant and the restoration of the surrounding areas?
I have no opinion on this but would like to hear other's opinions, pro's and con's. BUT I agree totally with Matt, please stay on the topic. I would appreciate that since I'm new to the area and can benefit from this thread in understanding the consquences of the closing the flume. We all know politics play a role in everything, but what about the facts please. Thank you, I'm looking forward to the discussion.

Sherileeaz 8)
The value of life lies not in the length of days, but in the use we make of them.

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