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Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 3:04 pm
by Robby
Hello everyone,
First post here I guess, I wonder if there are any arrowhead- or point projectile experts on this forum?
I went hiking in the Superstitions this weekend, and I found these two arrowheads completely by random on the trail. They were not close together, I found them about 30 min apart. I was thinking they were from Apache Indians or something, as they used to be in those mountains, but I would like to be sure. The biggest to the left is obviously broken.

Image

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I appreciate any help!

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 4:02 pm
by rally_toad
http://www.nps.gov/history/local-law/fh ... csprot.pdf

As quoted from The Archeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 (link above)

The purpose of this Act is to secure, for the present and
future benefit of the American people
, the protection of
archaeological resources and sites which are on public lands
and Indian lands, and to foster increased cooperation and
exchange of information between governmental authorities,
the professional archaeological community, and private
individuals having collections of archaeological resources
and data which were obtained before October 31, 1979 [the
date of the enactment of this Act].


No person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise
alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage,
or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource
located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity
is pursuant to a permit issued under section 4 of this Act,
a permit referred to in section 4(h)(2) of this Act, or the
exemption contained in section 4(g)(1) of this Act

(b) A permit may be issued pursuant to an application under
subsection (a) of this section if the Federal land manager
determines, pursuant to uniform regulations under this Act,
that—
(1) the applicant is qualified, to carry out the permitted
activity,
(2) the activity is undertaken for the purpose of furthering
archaeological knowledge in the public interest,


](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

I really don't think there's anymore I can say, very, very frustrating.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 4:13 pm
by Tough_Boots
I second rally_toad on this one. Leave that stuff behind.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 4:28 pm
by Robby
Alright, embarrassing first post :oops:, I'll bring them back next time I'm out there. But I'm pretty sure they only will end up in someone else's pockets instead. Besides from that, can anyone tell me what they are?

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 4:44 pm
by PaleoRob
Bring them back out there.

The second looks Apache. I'm not sure about the one on the left, but I found a similar one to the obsidian one in Sedona that was promptly and positively identified as Apache - it was collected by the FS and is now at MNA.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 4:49 pm
by Robby
PageRob wrote:Bring them back out there.

The second looks Apache. I'm not sure about the one on the left, but I found a similar one to the obsidian one in Sedona that was promptly and positively identified as Apache - it was collected by the FS and is now at MNA.
Great, thank you, I appreciate it!

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 5:02 pm
by hippiepunkpirate
Robby wrote:But I'm pretty sure they only will end up in someone else's pockets instead.
That's the kind of attitude that will only help to further destroy our valuable and sensitive cultural resources.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 7:27 pm
by azbackpackr
You could bring them back out there but hide them better. Remember where they are, and visit them, and show them to your grandchildren. I have hidden them before. I have a particular artifact I know where it is at Wenima (did I show it to you Rob, underneath that tree?) It seems to be a hide scraper, but is pretty rough-hewn. I go and look at "my" artifact now and again, since I know where I hid it! And, also, over by Rudd Creek Ruins, I can't remember if I was able to relocate the very nice shard for you, Rob? I hid it under a rock.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 8:35 pm
by colowlkr
Sounds like Fred Blackburn's "Outdoor Mueseum" in Grand Gulch. Many of the items that he's found in there have been left by him. Well hidden, often in a baggie with a note to enjoy it and then return it to it's hiding place. You can find some of them, but you won't find them walking down the trails or at the big ruins! You've got to get off the beaten path, and still crawl all over to find them.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 9:01 pm
by SuperstitionGuy
I use a large slab metate in Fish Creek Canyon of the Superstitions as a history lesson to those I am guiding. It is so large that it takes almost two adults to turn it over to display it. In fact most slab metates still in existance in the wilderness are just that, upside down and unrecognizable to the uninformed hiker backpacker. This particular metate was found in the bottom of the stream and moved to it's current location adjacent to the stream and will probably always remain there unless someone with a packhorse finds it and hauls it out to decorate his front yard. Curse the man who does that... :gun:

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 9:19 pm
by rally_toad
Regarding "bringing them out there and hiding them better" or "outdoor museum", in archeology context is everything. Any archeological resource that is taken out of its place or moved is useless to archeologists. Enjoy it, take pictures, and then put it back exactly where you found it.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 03 2011 10:01 pm
by Robby
rally_toad wrote:Regarding "bringing them out there and hiding them better" or "outdoor museum", in archeology context is everything. Any archeological resource that is taken out of its place or moved is useless to archeologists. Enjoy it, take pictures, and then put it back exactly where you found it.
Right, so that would be in the middle of the trail, clearly visible to a more observant hiker. I understand the "experience history" thing for the average hiker, I was super excited to find them, but I would like to see the archeologist who would give a rats ass for those artifacts. They do not have any archeological value at all, that's my 2 cents, bad attitude or not. :o

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 04 2011 1:28 am
by rally_toad
The thing is we don't leave things as they are soley for archeologists and scientists, but also for other people who enjoy being outside and enjoying our natural and cultural heritage. I couldn't care less if an archeologist "wouldn't give a rats ass" about those arrowheads or other artifacts, they're still cultural resources that everyone has the right to enjoy, and who knows what would be of worth to archeologists, one would have to see any site to make sure. In the future just take pictures, examine and replace exactly where it was found.

This is just very basic outdoor ethics and lnt principles.

Sorry, stuff like this just irks me so much. Reminds me of the time some visitor at Petrified Forest dug up an entire pot and turned in into a ranger thinking that they would want to use it for a museum display, literally everything that pot could of told us about the people using it went away as soon as it was taken away from the original site.

Don't mean to snap at you, but wanted to make you aware that collecting any archeological resource on federal lands is illegal and it really is stealing from everyone. They really are non-renewable resources, once they're gone they're gone for good.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 04 2011 11:14 am
by Tough_Boots
Those things need to stay out there not just for archeological value and for people's enjoyment but because taking them is stealing history from the area. Thats one less piece of the past out there.

@Robby

You say you were super excited to find them but how soon before that excitement fades and you forget all about them. They'll sit on a shelf or in a drawer forever and they'll eventually get lost or tossed. They were once arrowheads in the desert but now they will become knickknacks.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 04 2011 11:25 am
by Alston_Neal
Robby, welcome to the forum, hope we didn't scare ya off.. :scared:

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 04 2011 11:56 am
by JoelHazelton

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 04 2011 12:14 pm
by paulhubbard
@HPP: Have you ever explored around the old airstrip in Doney Park? Specifically the area at the west base of the little hill on the est end of the valley in Doney Park?

When I was a kid my father and his friends used to fly model airplanes out there (it was in the middle of nowhere then) and us kids would wander around and collect pottery shards and arrowheads. They were literally everywhere, the ground was littered with pottery and arrowheads... My folks would make us empty our pockets before going home, not to preserve history, but to keep from getting "that trash" in the trucks.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 04 2011 12:15 pm
by Tough_Boots
azpride wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Finders-Keepers-A ... 0316066427
Also available at Changing Hands Bookstore... ;)

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 04 2011 12:45 pm
by hippiepunkpirate
paulhubbard wrote:@HPP: Have you ever explored around the old airstrip in Doney Park? Specifically the area at the west base of the little hill on the est end of the valley in Doney Park?
Sounds like you're talking about Old Caves Crater. Maybe I'm just not that observant, but I have no idea where the old airstrip would be. Now there are houses built right up to the edge of the crater on its west side. Not surprised you found tons of artifacts out there as there is some rubble on top of Old Caves that is supposed to be a ruin. It's a terribly popular area, and the ruins are the number #1 resting spot for hikers so I wouldn't expect to find any artifacts left up top, though I haven't looked. I hike out in that area off and on though, so I'll have keep an eye out for stuff.

Re: Arrowheads in the Superstitions

Posted: May 04 2011 12:50 pm
by PaleoRob
There's a Sinagua ballcourt in Doney Park too...