Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Day Hiking & general trail related

Moderator: HAZ - Moderators

Linked Areas none
Post Reply
User avatar
joebartels
Posts: 7020
Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by joebartels » Dec 01 2016 5:43 pm

Forest Service seeks public input and comments
The public is invited to comment over a 45-day period, November 29, 2016 through January 13, 2017.

Notice of Intent released
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/coconino/ ... EPRD526202

Fossil Creek Comprehensive River Management Plan (CRMP)
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/coconino/ ... rdb5410835

Proposed Action ( A B C D E )
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/coconino/ ... rdb5410834
Hike Arizona it ROCKS!

User avatar
trekkin_gecko
Posts: 534
Joined: Nov 17 2008 4:30 pm
City, State: phoenix, az

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by trekkin_gecko » Dec 05 2016 8:23 am


User avatar
chumley
Posts: 6978
Joined: Sep 18 2002 8:59 am
City, State: Tempe, AZ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by chumley » Dec 05 2016 9:33 am

The third link in the OP is really the easiest way to see and compare the plans. The bottom of the page includes a handy table that shows the changes from one to another. It's also available in PDF format (attached here).
55209_FSPLT3_3907875.pdf
(224.82 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
Upon reading this last week I was a little bit disappointed that there wasn't a proposal that was more in line with the regulations of the federally designated wilderness areas that surround the creek (Fossil Springs Wilderness and Mazatzal Wilderness).

That's when I started reading about the 1968 federal Wild and Scenic River Act, which is the basis for protection of the creek right now.

WSR designation is not anything like the Wilderness Act. At all. It is basically put in place to assure that a waterway will be free-flowing. This means that the river cannot be dammed or diverted to generate electricity (*super-simplified explanation!). The WSR classifies rivers in one of three categories:
Wild River Areas – Those rivers or sections of rivers that are free of impoundments and generally inaccessible except by trail, with watersheds or shorelines essentially primitive and waters unpolluted. These represent vestiges of primitive America.

Scenic River Areas – Those rivers or sections of rivers that are free of impoundments, with shorelines or watersheds still largely primitive and shorelines largely undeveloped, but accessible in places by roads.

Recreational River Areas – Those rivers or sections of rivers that are readily accessible by road or railroad, that may have some development along their shorelines, and that may have undergone some impoundment or diversion in the past.
The 7.5 miles of Fossil Creek being addressed in this Forest Service proposal is designated as a Recreational River Area.

The proposals by the FS which include increased vehicular travel and greater development along the trail are exactly in-line with the land-use principles outlined under the Wild & Scenic Rivers Act designation given to Fossil Creek in 2009.

The WSR designation is actually the reason this is happening. Either the designation would have to change to a Wild River Area (which by definition could only happen if the FS closed all road access), or it would have to be designated Wilderness (something I don't think has ever been considered by anybody official).

So basically, this is going to turn into a state-park-like developed recreation area, and choosing one proposal over the other is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

User avatar
JasonCleghorn
Posts: 471
Joined: Nov 11 2014 1:03 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by JasonCleghorn » Dec 05 2016 9:40 am

chumley wrote:The third link in the OP is really the easiest way to see and compare the plans. The bottom of the page includes a handy table that shows the changes from one to another. It's also available in PDF format (attached here).
55209_FSPLT3_3907875.pdf

Upon reading this last week I was a little bit disappointed that there wasn't a proposal that was more in line with the regulations of the federally designated wilderness areas that surround the creek (Fossil Springs Wilderness and Mazatzal Wilderness).

That's when I started reading about the 1968 federal Wild and Scenic River Act, which is the basis for protection of the creek right now.

WSR designation is not anything like the Wilderness Act. At all. It is basically put in place to assure that a waterway will be free-flowing. This means that the river cannot be dammed or diverted to generate electricity (*super-simplified explanation!). The WSR classifies rivers in one of three categories:
Wild River Areas – Those rivers or sections of rivers that are free of impoundments and generally inaccessible except by trail, with watersheds or shorelines essentially primitive and waters unpolluted. These represent vestiges of primitive America.

Scenic River Areas – Those rivers or sections of rivers that are free of impoundments, with shorelines or watersheds still largely primitive and shorelines largely undeveloped, but accessible in places by roads.

Recreational River Areas – Those rivers or sections of rivers that are readily accessible by road or railroad, that may have some development along their shorelines, and that may have undergone some impoundment or diversion in the past.
The 7.5 miles of Fossil Creek being addressed in this Forest Service proposal is designated as a Recreational River Area.

The proposals by the FS which include increased vehicular travel and greater development along the trail are exactly in-line with the land-use principles outlined under the Wild & Scenic Rivers Act designation given to Fossil Creek in 2009.

The WSR designation is actually the reason this is happening. Either the designation would have to change to a Wild River Area (which by definition could only happen if the FS closed all road access), or it would have to be designated Wilderness (something I don't think has ever been considered by anybody official).

So basically, this is going to turn into a state-park-like developed recreation area, and choosing one proposal over the other is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
They should just install an escalator or people moving walkway like at the airports from the TH down to the creek so as to maximize millenial participation. Maybe we could get a few fraternity chapters at ASU to sponsor it.
Follow me on Instagram: hikingjason
"It's not the mountains that we conquer, but ourselves"
"HAZ is not a meet-up group. Unless you're in the IN group, then its a meet-up group"

User avatar
flagscott
Posts: 333
Joined: Jan 03 2016 7:41 pm
City, State: Flagstaff, AZ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by flagscott » Dec 05 2016 10:34 am

chumley wrote:So basically, this is going to turn into a state-park-like developed recreation area, and choosing one proposal over the other is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Glad I visited years before everybody in Phoenix discovered the area and the Forest Service decided to turn it into a money mint. Now I'm pretty sure I'll never go back.

Thanks for the update.

User avatar
flagscott
Posts: 333
Joined: Jan 03 2016 7:41 pm
City, State: Flagstaff, AZ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by flagscott » Dec 05 2016 10:36 am

JasonCleghorn wrote:They should just install an escalator or people moving walkway like at the airports from the TH down to the creek so as to maximize millenial participation. Maybe we could get a few fraternity chapters at ASU to sponsor it.
Judging from the photos I've seen (I haven't visited recently), the overcrowding problem goes way beyond millenials. It looks like lots of families visit, too, and I'm sure plenty of non-millenial adults. Maybe someone who has been recently can confirm this.

...But I won't be surprised if they do turn it into a cushy park to maximize visitation.

User avatar
chumley
Posts: 6978
Joined: Sep 18 2002 8:59 am
City, State: Tempe, AZ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by chumley » Dec 05 2016 10:43 am

flagscott wrote:Maybe someone who has been recently can confirm this.

I spent all day there yesterday. There were two other cars containing a total of 4 people, all over 50. It was actually quite enjoyable.

User avatar
joebartels
Posts: 7020
Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by joebartels » Dec 06 2016 6:44 pm

A whopping 32 people on the call when I chimed in fifteen minutes late. Some interesting stuff. Most notable you can still suggest alternatives. While they do welcome comments via email... have a clue what is going on. Please read through the material and get a base understanding what is going on.
Hike Arizona it ROCKS!

User avatar
joebartels
Posts: 7020
Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by joebartels » Feb 11 2019 8:23 pm

The comment period has been extended! Dec. 1, 2018 - April 4, 2019.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/coconino ... rdb5410835
Hike Arizona it ROCKS!

User avatar
trekkin_gecko
Posts: 534
Joined: Nov 17 2008 4:30 pm
City, State: phoenix, az

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by trekkin_gecko » May 31 2019 9:57 am

Fossil Springs trailhead and trail to temporarily close

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/coconino ... EPRD635782

really?

User avatar
chumley
Posts: 6978
Joined: Sep 18 2002 8:59 am
City, State: Tempe, AZ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by chumley » May 31 2019 10:36 am

It's funny because it's Payson-Pine-Strawberry that has been pushing so hard to have some access from the top in the management plan. The closure of 708 was a big deal to them when implemented.

And yet, those tiny towns don't have the resources to handle the crowds that they want to come there and spend money. Quite the conundrum.
Profound observer

User avatar
nonot
Posts: 1926
Joined: Nov 18 2005 11:52 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by nonot » May 31 2019 5:53 pm

Closed because of the risk of people being stupid and getting heatstroke... That's what our society has devolved to. Let em die, I say, it's darwinism.
http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php

Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!

User avatar
big_load
Posts: 4347
Joined: Oct 28 2003 11:20 am
City, State: Andover, NJ

Re: Fossil Creek - Comprehensive River Management Plan

Post by big_load » May 31 2019 8:10 pm

nonot wrote:risk of people being stupid
I don't think it can be called a risk when the probability reaches 1.0.

Post Reply

Return to “Trail Chat”


cron