Firearm alternatives

Moderator: HAZ - Moderators

Linked Guides none
Linked Areas none
User avatar
desertgirl
Posts: 197
Joined: Mar 31 2002 5:44 pm
City, State: Chandler, AZ

Firearm alternatives

Post by desertgirl » Oct 27 2003 3:35 pm

I have seen quite a few who "pack" firearms : rambo : .... I don't see the point if your firearm is at the bottom of your pack....what ever is after you is going to get you long before you get what you are "packing"!

Has any one had any experiences with Mace or similar deterents ? I think these would work very akin to .22 -- enrage !

User avatar
pfredricks
Posts: 250
Joined: Oct 18 2002 10:59 am
City, State: Surprise, AZ

avatars

Post by pfredricks » Oct 29 2003 5:59 am

good to see the scruffy, gun totin kokopelli again-(WIZ) I forgot about those old different kind of kokopelli things til now. HAZ is always changing!

That bear bell thing is hilarious!!!!!!!!! Have been laughing out loud for an extended period of time.
"I'd feel better if we had some crampons. Oh, what the hell, let's go for it..." — Common climbing last words.

User avatar
Wiz
Posts: 302
Joined: May 22 2002 3:15 am
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: re:

Post by Wiz » Oct 29 2003 6:06 am

plummer150 wrote:While certain weapontry has crossed my mind while I hike, I would probably prefer the a.k. 47, this is the choice of weapontry by most of your enemies, so, you might as well be packin the same heat.
Oh come on, everyone knows that bad guys with machine guns can't shoot straight. Didn't you ever see "The Dead Pool"? Three guys with machine guns are blasting away at Dirty Harry, not hitting anything, and he takes 'em all out with 3 rounds from his mighty .44.

Reality programming at its best!
"The older I get, the better I was."

User avatar
ghoster
Posts: 23
Joined: May 13 2002 4:29 pm
City, State: Scottsdale, AZ

Post by ghoster » Oct 29 2003 7:50 am

Four Peaks was supposed to have one bear for every square mile, which I find to be sort of overstated. I just spent last weekend up there climbing to Alder Saddle and back, yep, saw some bear scat, but there are so many manzanita berries that it was full of those. I didn't see any real bears though and spent the night at 6000 feet on the east side. There is a Forest service camp near Black Bear Springs that is doing trail maintenance and re-routing four peaks trail #130 around a Bald Eagle nesting site. They say they will be out of there by December 31. They have cleaned up the trail removed the blowdown and done a little fill in. THe trail is interesting and the last part of it really exciting to do especially with the wind blowing up those canyons. We didn't see any one else until we got to the Amethyst trail on the way back down sunday. The forest service guys also said something about linking this trail with AZT. But I didn't pay that much attention to where it was going to link up. You can see the mule tracks on the trail from their supply coming in.
HavingfuninAZ

User avatar
desertgirl
Posts: 197
Joined: Mar 31 2002 5:44 pm
City, State: Chandler, AZ

Post by desertgirl » Oct 29 2003 8:47 am

Wiz wrote:I've found the following references:

"Bear bells provide an element of safety for hikers in grizzly country. The
tricky part is getting them on the bears."
----
"The Forest Service has issued a BEAR WARNING in the national forests for this summer. They're urging everyone to protect themselves by wearing bells and carrying pepper spray.
Campers should be alert for signs of fresh bear activity, and they should be able to tell the difference between Black Bear dung and Grizzly Bear dung. Black Bear dung is rather small and round. Sometimes you can see fruit seeds and/or squirrel fur in it.
Grizzly Bear dung has bells in it, and smells like pepper spray."
----
Hope these help.
:lol: :lol: This is by far the best post I have read in a while :lol: :lol:
................. some more :lol: :lol:

User avatar
Randy
Posts: 142
Joined: Feb 13 2002 5:13 pm
City, State: Scottsdale, AZ

Bears and Kalashnikovs

Post by Randy » Nov 03 2003 5:08 pm

Very few bears carry Kalshnikovs....Seriously, the AK-47, shoots a round known as the 7.62x39mm. With apologies to all those who have been killed by one, it is not an extremely effective killing machine. The developer of the carbine, General Kalashnikov, once stated in an interview that the cartridge was designed to wound rather than kill. He figured that a dead combatant could lay there till the engagement was over or he decomposed, whichever came first. A wounded combatant yells and screams for a medic, and can take several other combatants away from offensive firing to drag the victim to a medic, a mobile care facility, or at least a less exposed location. The Russians figured that severely wounding a high number of the enemy troops was a greater logistical hindrance to him than fatalities. The carbine is also extremely easy to build in russia, or replicate in third world countries with rather primitive tools, is easy to field strip and repair in poor conditions, and is very tolerant of dirt, debris and poor maintenance (unlike the M-16, which is fussy as a Ferrari). It also shoots like crap, and is not extremely accurate. The approach is called "spray and pray", and volume makes up for accuracy. The Russians themselves didn't use it for sniper or precise fire work, but substituted their Dragunov bolt action rifle.

My point is that I'd not trust one to stop a bear. They work better on humans, who tend to be more compliant after receiving a serious wound than predators, who tend to get even nastier. If a long gun is desired, I'd opt for a more powerful caliber, say a .308 in a short mountain rifle, or even an old 30-30 lever action carbine. Those are fairly cheap second hand, and ammo is also cheap, and they are easy to handle and fairly light. They have fast target acquisition with iron sites. (Scopes are slow...used to target critters who don't know you are there, not charging animals in close.

There have been a number of bear attacks in AZ over the years; notably in the Chiricahuas, Catalinas, and along the Black River on the San Carlos Reservation. Almost all were in camping areas with vehicular access, which means, food, garbage, and bears who had lost their fear of humans due to feeding and/or poor sanitation practices. Rustler Park at the north end of the Chiricahua W.A. has had a long history of bears getting into cars attracted by Coolers, food and yes, Beer). I'm not aware of any attacks in truly remote wilderness areas of Az.

A rash of attacks in Canada by black bears yielded the data that the carcasses of the offending bears were all in "ketosis"; which indicates that the bears were malnourished due to disruption of habitat or closed acess to previously accessible food sources. The attacks were all predatory, rather than protective of young, or the result of surprise encounters. Grizzly attacks are usually the latter, which raises the question of which subspecies is really the more dangerous. I'd still vote for Bro. Griz, since there are few hand held firearms capable of an immediate knockdown. -R

User avatar
desertgirl
Posts: 197
Joined: Mar 31 2002 5:44 pm
City, State: Chandler, AZ

...

Post by desertgirl » Nov 04 2003 6:51 am

Calling to all ye "bear experts"

Is there a "good" time of the year to avoid the bears in AZ ? I just have a hard time picturing AZ bears hibernating ....
Last edited by desertgirl on Sep 17 2008 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Randy
Posts: 142
Joined: Feb 13 2002 5:13 pm
City, State: Scottsdale, AZ

Post by Randy » Nov 04 2003 7:42 am

You are right Desertgirl; they don't hibernate, they nap. The bear is really a wonderful animal and it's the lucky hiker who gets to see one.

Bears are no reason to avoid the backcountry anymore than sharks are a good reason to avoid the ocean. The same primary rule applies: Do not look like, or act like prey. Bears have a great nose. If you fry up fresh trout and wipe your hands on your pants, and then take those pants into the tent; you may get a visit. Securely bear bagging all foods, all toiletries (to a bear, deodorant or toothpaste or Chanel #5 are all potential edibles) and all clothing worn when cooking is the first step. In problem areas (not AZ) some like to stop and have the evening meal, then hike another mile to a campsight where no food is prepared. Grizz expert Doug Peacock (his book Grizzly Years is a great read, he is BTW, the model for Hayduke in Ed Abby's novels) wrote that you inherit the karma of those who used a campsite before you. If they left food out, and bears got a treat, bears will return looking for more. So, maybe wise to avoid locations where previous campers have left a less than pristine camp. Such people are likely to have been sloppy with food storage as well.

Finally, bears have a fear of dogs, as some hunt bear with tracking dogs. A weimaraner would probably caution a bear away. And of course, remeber, you don't have to run faster than the bear, just faster than the person you are with....-R

User avatar
Cowboy
Posts: 1
Joined: Nov 05 2003 8:33 am
City, State: Prescott, AZ

Post by Cowboy » Nov 05 2003 12:15 pm

desertgirl wrote:Do those " Bear bells " really work.....? I am thinking that a bear could probably smell ( may be even hear) us long before .... Always have looked at them and wondered.....

Any bear experts .... ?
Howdy,
...about Bear Bells. Twentyfive years ago I was headed for British Columbia for some back country work...a friend gave me what looked like a large sleigh bell and told me the story of bears being afraid of bells. I took the bell and tied it to my pack (with the proverbial grain of salt) and headed north. To make a long story short, my hiking companion and I were actually cornered by a black bear. Having left the .458 Winchester in camp (won't make that mistake again) and having nothing left to lose but our lives, we shook the bell for all it was worth. The bear took off like his butt was on fire. I have never gone into the woods since without that bell...
Perseverance Survives Technology

User avatar
Sybil
Posts: 10
Joined: Mar 03 2005 5:43 am
City, State: Mesa, AZ
Contact:

Post by Sybil » Mar 11 2005 9:41 pm

OOOH! OOOH! Mr. Kotter! I like the horn idea.
Don't let the name fool you...

User avatar
Sjcorrea
Posts: 3
Joined: May 09 2007 11:19 pm
City, State: Tucson, AZ

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by Sjcorrea » Jun 06 2007 3:46 am

Growing up in Anchorage AK, Fish and Game spoke at our schools every year about bear safety. The advice given was that bear bells actually attract bears curiosity and can bring them toward you, they were very adamant in recommending against bear bells. They also swore by bear spray, they carry it with them in the field. From personal experience in several encounters with black bears, i have never been approached, i always stumbled upon them. They ran away as soon as they saw me or after i made some noise and large motions they took off. I was with my friend Mike when he maced a black bear in Chugiak, AK. The bears eyes swelled shut and it began drooling and was incapacitated as soon as the spray hit its face. I personally would not recommend shooting a bear of any kind with a hand gun, other than a S&W 500 or the like, as it is more likely to piss them off than hinder them. I personally know that the spray works and has a decent range. There are lots of people who have survived severe grizzly mauling because of the spray. Another friend of mine was killed by a male Grizzly on Kodiak and he had a 7mm and shot the bear point blank in the stomach, it did not kill the bear. F & G killed the bear four days later from a helicopter. Unless you plan on carrying a really, really, really big hand gun, don't use it on a bear. As far as the bells go, I don't use them. I am not a bear expert but i have had lots of run ins, none in AZ.
Last edited by Sjcorrea on Jun 10 2007 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
hikeaz
Posts: 1891
Joined: May 13 2002 10:07 am
City, State: Tempe, AZ
Contact:

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by hikeaz » Jun 06 2007 3:37 pm

Image
kurt

User avatar
Sjcorrea
Posts: 3
Joined: May 09 2007 11:19 pm
City, State: Tucson, AZ

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by Sjcorrea » Jun 07 2007 12:48 am

ha, thats right, my dad always told me the best protection was a .22, so when the bear charges, you can shoot your buddy in the leg and run away. obviously kidding.

User avatar
joebartels
Posts: 6989
Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by joebartels » Jun 07 2007 8:36 am

A real man (in touch with nature) would casually walk over, give him a bear hug and move on.

...I'm not in touch myself :o
Hike Arizona it ROCKS!

no avatar
jkern15674
Posts: 58
Joined: Apr 21 2004 8:50 am
City, State: Chandler, AZ

Re: Bears and Kalashnikovs

Post by jkern15674 » Aug 31 2007 5:22 am

How many caps can you get off with a non-assualt rifle? With a 30 round clip it doesn't matter how bad your aim is or how weak the 7.62 round is! I agree with the ease of field strip, dirt tolerence but disagree with the accuracy. I pack my 9 on my hip and my MAK-90 strapped to my pack. I usually leave my rocket propelled grenades at home but I do bring my Rambo knife....that's my ultralight!

User avatar
Al_HikesAZ
Posts: 1348
Joined: May 16 2005 1:01 pm
City, State: Scottsdale, AZ
Contact:

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by Al_HikesAZ » Aug 31 2007 6:39 pm

On my hip, I carry a new composite 45 - the Springfield XD45. I'll fight for the right to carry the Ma Duece. But if I'm going ultralight, give me the SAW (M-249). It's only a 5.56mm NATO round but it has earned its name. I understand they have scaled it back to 850RPM from 1100RPM but it still rocks. :sl:

If you need a new Rambo knife, check out this little sweetheart
( dead link removed )
Anybody can make a hike harder. The real skill comes in making the hike easier.
Not if we can help it UNCLE JACK. http://www.sleepingdogtv.com/reel/Uncle-Jack.aspx Not if we can help it.

User avatar
azbackpackr
Posts: 8122
Joined: Jan 21 2006 6:46 am
City, State: Flag-summer-Needles-winter

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by azbackpackr » Sep 01 2007 4:36 am

I have used pepper spray on dogs while riding my bike in town. It is quite effective, but will not permanently injure someone's dog. I highly recommend every runner, walker and cyclist carry pepper spray while exercising on rural roads. A woman was bitten very badly just this week in Eagar, by a dog I have ridden my bike by countless times. This time he decided to hop the fence. He bit her numerous times, and tried to drag her. She didn't carry pepper spray. It would have been effective, because she stopped when he charged at her. He stopped, too, at first, but then when she walked on, he came up behind her. If she'd had the pepper spray she could have squirted him while they were both stopped. I doubt it would work on bears or mtn. lions, though, maybe slow them down. I hear that bears in Alaska have learned to come back for more pepper spray--they like the pepper taste!

One more thing, I always REPORT loose dogs in my town when I get back home. That particular dog had bitten someone else already. The town saw "lawsuit!" coming, and had the dog put to sleep, which they should have done the first time it got out and bit someone. I think I will go to a town meeting and berate them just a little bit--there just aren't big enough fines or enough enforcement of the leash laws.

While hiking I sometimes carry a .38 Ladysmith, and usually carry a Kershaw switchblade. I have never had occasion to use them for self-defense, though. The switchblade is quite effective in shocking my "liberal" yuppie friends, though, when I pull it out and start flicking it when I'm bored. They all took my picture with it last time we hiked together. I had to disabuse them of the notion that switchblades are illegal. Hah, that's why we live in Arizona, right? NOT illegal!
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

User avatar
azsixshooter
Posts: 4
Joined: Oct 14 2007 8:43 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by azsixshooter » Oct 15 2007 11:29 pm

I did some research a while back on what the most effective firearm is against bear. There seemed to be 2 camps; those who say 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs and those who prefer a high-power rifle. I like the shotgun personally because I have two 12 gauges now and I've been snap shooting shotguns for most of my life and feel very comfortable defending my life with a 12 gauge pump shotgun whether it's loaded with 4 buck, 1 buck, 00 buck or slugs.

That said, when I am bow-hunting I carry a 4" Smith and Wesson 686 in .357 Mangle 'Em. A lot of people swear that .357 Mag is completely inadequate for defense against a bear. I looked around and found some ammo from a company called Buffalo Bore. It's a "Heavy .357 Mag" and fires a 180 gr semi-wadcutter hard-cast lead slug at ~1500 fps. All at standard pressure. For those who aren't savy with ballistics, think "Built-To-Penetrate". It's supposedly created for those of us who only have access to a .357 Mag and are in bear country. I don't know if it will work or not, but I've performed some ballistic tests with these rounds and they are impressive. I shot one at two 1-gallon jugs that I filled with water and froze solid. They both all but exploded from the force of the impact and the slug passed through both and disappeared into the burm I was using as a backstop. I was impressed. I've also shot them through seasoned hardwood which many people say is the best simulation for natural bone. Again, very impressed. I have found in my research that there are also 2 camps regarding handguns for defense against bears. The one that says if attacked, lay on your back and bring up your knees to hold the gun steady as you aim with both hands. When the bear is upon you and all you can see is fur -- unload on it. The other camp says that if you are fixed on carrying a sidearm as defense against a bear (which they don't recommend) then you should at the very least file off the front sight of the handgun. That way it won't hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your @55!

My friend just got false-charged by a black bear up in the White Mountains this year while he was bowhunting. All he had was a knife and didn't even have an arrow nocked before the bear rushed to within 10 or 15 feet of him and was poppin' it's teeth. Luckily it backed off and left. That said, I worry more about 2-legged predators than 4-legged ones, but it's still something I think about as I spend a lot of time bowhunting and it's not feasible for me to be out there jingling with my backpacking bell on! I think there are a lot of good suggestions in the above posts throughout this thread and in comparison to the research I've done around the 'net on this subject it seems that at least some of the people on this thread have some good solid advice to give on the topic. I personally think bear spray would be effective as their noses are extremely sensitive. They can smell things from up to 5 miles away so I can't imagine a snoot-full of Oleoresin-Capsicum _not_ eliciting a pretty crippling response from them. I carry an ASP street defender at all times, even when I'm carrying my concealed firearm as it's a very effective tool. I highly recommend ASP products, but if you are specifically looking into pepper spray for bear defense you will be better served going with something designed for that purpose. I saw a big can at Sportsman's Warehouse going for $50. I'm not sure what the shelf life is on that stuff, but I imagine it's pretty good. When you bowhunt bear in Canada they give you a big can to keep with you in the tree in case the bears come after you up there. I've also heard of guides and rangers using it as well, so I assume they know what they're doing.

I still contend that a 12 gauge pump shotgun full of slugs and a solid background in training with the tool at hand is your best chance to survive, but obviously that option isn't feasible or desirable for everyone in every circumstance. I certainly don't want to be humping either of my shottys along with me on a long hike! But my .357 Mag is a nice companion and I'm considering getting one of those bear spray cannisters and a holster for it to put somewhere handy.

Stay Safe!

Steve
"Only those who risk going too far can ever possibly find out how far they can go."

--T.S. Elliot

User avatar
PaleoRob
Posts: 2341
Joined: Apr 03 2006 12:21 pm
City, State: Grand Junction, CO
Contact:

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by PaleoRob » Oct 16 2007 10:11 am

On a somewhat unrelated note, please please consider using nonlead ammo (copper, bismuth, steel, etc.), especially for situations that could involve shooting at wildlife (either in self defense or while hunting). Lead poisoning is the primary source of mortality in our population, and it affects other animals too, including bald and golden eagles. Almost all of our crew are hunters, and we practice what we preach - we're not just blowing smoke. The new Barnes copper bullets especially have more downrange energy than most standard lead bullets, so they have more penetrating power at longer ranges than lead. Its the main thing we have to worry about, scavenging lead-contaminated carcasses, so getting the word out to other folks is something we place a lot of stock into.
[/soapbox]
"The only thing we did was wrong was staying in the wilderness to long...the only thing we did was right was the day we started to fight..."
-Old Spiritual
My book, The Marauders on Lulu and Amazon

User avatar
Nighthiker
Posts: 1436
Joined: Feb 03 2002 6:59 am
City, State: Payson

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by Nighthiker » Oct 16 2007 6:26 pm

I just bark like a dog.
jk

User avatar
kylemorgan
Posts: 67
Joined: Nov 19 2005 10:46 am
City, State: Raleigh, NC

Re: Firearm alternatives

Post by kylemorgan » Oct 17 2007 12:06 pm

I still say that the best alternative to a gun is 2 guns. And a knife.
"Efficiency is for robots....be effective." Mike Rowe

Post Reply

Return to “Firearms / Knives / Tools / Hunting”


cron