Scary NRA Militia types?!!

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To pack or not to pack, iron that is...

You betcha!
155
39%
No way!
60
15%
Ya but it depends on the location
125
32%
Other: Crossbow / Slingshot / Homemade Device
11
3%
I don't need no stinkin gun! Real men fight with their hands
42
11%
 
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pixelfrog
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Scary NRA Militia types?!!

Post by pixelfrog » Aug 05 2002 10:44 am

Hi All,

I was on a beautiful hike this past saturday morning on the Bluffs Springs Trail in the Sups. The Temperature cooperated, the sun was behind clouds, there was a nice breeze and of course anyone who's been out there knows the scenery is increadible.

The only weird thing about the hike was on the way back to the trailhead at the end of my hike probably within a half mile of the peralta trailhead, I ran into these two guys that were all suited up for war games or something. Camo, Knives strapped to gear suspenders, a pistol at the older man's side who had so much facial hair, you could barely see his face.

As I passed them with my hiking poles out the older guy said to me all suprised, "Ski Poles?!!!" I quickly explained they helped the old knees on the way down after I noticed he had a gun at his side. I pretty much smiled and nodded then continued on my way.

Now I'm all for everyone's right to bear arms and all, but seeing this kind of freaked me out. I know it's legal to carry handguns in Arizona and that's fine, but I was thinking there isn't a very large reason to carry a gun out there, especially if you are with another full grown adult male.

I have no idea what their reason would be for bringing those types of weopons out there, and the whole incident was a bit disturbing. I was glad that I encountered these yahoo's close to the trailhead. Anyone else run into any of these gun toting militia type weirdo's?

Paul

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Snick33
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Simple explaination

Post by Snick33 » Aug 05 2002 11:04 am

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Daryl
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Post by Daryl » Aug 05 2002 11:28 am

Could they have been hunting something (legally or not)?

Be careful on the stereotypes. I carry a gun when hiking in remote areas or areas where I know there is a reason to carry and I assure you it has nothing to do with the size of my genitals :lol:
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jeremy77777
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Post by jeremy77777 » Aug 05 2002 11:30 am

I am one of those gun carrying "crazy" guys. I carry my sidearm for protection. When I am hiking in the middle of nowhere, the only law a criminal will understand is the one written on the tip of my 250 grain jacketed hollow piont. There are no law enforcement officers in the back country. You are all by yourself. Now unless you have been threatened and held at knife piont in the middle of the woods or had another bad incident with a brigand of some kind you wouldn't really understand. I hope none of you ever have to experience it. Think about it. If a guy has a gun and you don't, you are pretty much at his mercy. Your wife is his for the taking. Or maybe your daughter or girlfriend will be his next victim. And to you gals. What would you do if there were 2 or 3 of you hiking and a man jumps out with a knife and tells you to do what he says. What are you gonna do? If I came upon helpless women being attacked by a thug, you can bet I wouldn't hesitate to use my weapon to get control of the situation however I see fit. Guns are the law. I feel safer when I see people carrying them and criminals feel less powerful. Now there are peole who take the BDU thing a bit too far but I'm sure they are just enjoying themselves and having a little fun.
They are also used for protection against wild animals. Have any of you ever been attacked by a mountain lion? Javelina? Rattlesnake? Well if you haven't had that opprotunity yet, you are pretty lucky. But when you do have the misfortune of being attacked you will be more than happy to use your gun to protect yourself.
One thing I am really getting sick of is people moving here from back east somewhere and bringing their "guns should be banned" attitude with them. So many people hate guns or are scared of them and that's probably because they don't understand them or have never used one. I say guns are important tools and everyone should own one and know how to use it.
I really would like to see more women taking gun courses and hanging out at the firing ranges, especially with violent crime rates being as high as they are. My wife carries a glock 17 9mm and I prefer to carry my .357 ruger blackhawk revolver.
I love guns and the security they give me and the protection they have given me in the past. If you don't like guns, fine. Don't buy one. But just remember that criminals carry guns and knives. Shouldn't you?
:idea:
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Post by azhiker96 » Aug 05 2002 11:53 am

I don't currently carry a gun but I have in the past and feel it's a personal decision. I do agree they are good protection from predators with "man" being the worst predator out there. I disagree with one little comment. I don't think "protection from rattlesnake attack" is a good reason to pack a gun. If a snake is close enough to pose a real danger you're as likely to shoot yourself as the snake. I believe most rattlesnakes that are killed are shot from a safe distance (more than a couple of feet away) which means there was really no need to shoot the snake! (Unless you're hungry.) Just remember that anyone can carry a gun openly in Arizona but if you conceal it you need a CCW permit. :wink:

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Post by pixelfrog » Aug 05 2002 12:00 pm

easy, easy, relax! I know what guns are for and I don't have a "guns should be banned attitude" from back east or whatever you are talking about. My father has always owned guns and I know what they are for.

My concern is not the people who use guns responsibly it's the idiots who shoot rattlesnakes for no reason, the morons who go back there and target shoot where and while people are hiking or the fanatical militia para-military freaks who want to live out there own personnal little desert storm or something. I for one don't want to be dodging bullets while I'm back there trying to have a wilderness experience, and I have heard people shooting out there.

I have no problem with responsible gun use, and support everyone's right to own and carry a gun. All I said was seeing this weopon on the hip of a guy that could have passed for a terrorist was a little unsettling that's all.

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Post by ck_1 » Aug 05 2002 12:20 pm

OK, I'm going to try to do this without preaching, and please understand that my opinion is just that, mine...I'm not saying gun owners are bad people, but I wanted to comment on some things you said...
jeremy77777 wrote:Now unless you have been threatened and held at knife piont in the middle of the woods or had another bad incident with a brigand of some kind you wouldn't really understand. I hope none of you ever have to experience it. Think about it. If a guy has a gun and you don't, you are pretty much at his mercy. Your wife is his for the taking. Or maybe your daughter or girlfriend will be his next victim. And to you gals. What would you do if there were 2 or 3 of you hiking and a man jumps out with a knife and tells you to do what he says. What are you gonna do?
I'd say pepper spray. It's not leathal, easier to dispense, lighter in weight, can't kill you if you accidently discharge it and is much less tempting to a child
jeremy77777 wrote: If I came upon helpless women being attacked by a thug, you can bet I wouldn't hesitate to use my weapon to get control of the situation however I see fit.
Again, I don't get why a gun is necessary, plus the tag line of "however I see fit" feeds into the gun crazies mentality...could be just your choice of words, but words like that are powerful.
jeremy77777 wrote: Guns are the law.
I hate to be the guy pissing into the wind here, but guns are not the law. Unless of course you are "a member of a well regulated militia in defense of a free state"...I know, I know, we can all interpret the constitution to feed our own perspective, but come on...


jeremy77777 wrote: Now there are peole who take the BDU thing a bit too far but I'm sure they are just enjoying themselves and having a little fun.
How would anyone else be able to know if they are just having fun? I mean, that's a strong presumption.

jeremy77777 wrote: They are also used for protection against wild animals. Have any of you ever been attacked by a mountain lion? Javelina? Rattlesnake? Well if you haven't had that opprotunity yet, you are pretty lucky. But when you do have the misfortune of being attacked you will be more than happy to use your gun to protect yourself.
This argument is hard to make in light of the recent news about the guy fending off a mountain line with a pocket knife. In the dozen or so snake encounters I've had, never did I feel the need to kill the snake, nor do I think I would have been a fast enough "draw" to take it out. I guess I've always found that wildlife would rather not be around humans, unless the humans are screwing around with the wildlife.


jeremy77777 wrote:One thing I am really getting sick of is people moving here from back east somewhere and bringing their "guns should be banned" attitude with them. So many people hate guns or are scared of them and that's probably because they don't understand them or have never used one. I say guns are important tools and everyone should own one and know how to use it. .
I'm one of those guys. However I base my opinion not on where I am from or some type of fear, but rather on the fact that there are many other excellent ways someone can defend themselves. Additionally, my opinion comes in light of the shear number of senseless deaths as a result of (1) kids getting their hands on their parents weapons (2) gun owners irresposiblity .ie firing into the air? (3) lack of any legitimate regulation on the sale and training of gun owners. There is no way to trust that a gun owner is responsible.

Has anyone been in the area just north of the Usery firing range? Basically behind the mountain with the <---Phoenix sign on it...the whole area between the backside of the mountain and Bush highway is a vast wasteland of the result of gun owners. MILLIONS of spent shells! I mean millions...added to it the beer cans, styrofoam coolers, and the various appliances (tv's, frigs) used as target practice. It is disgusting.

Heck, we can't even trust people to hike in the backcountry and not let their camp fires burn the whole forest down....
jeremy77777 wrote: I really would like to see more women taking gun courses and hanging out at the firing ranges, especially with violent crime rates being as high as they are. .
I'd rather they take self-defense courses and lessen the chance of them harming themselves with their own weapon.
jeremy77777 wrote: I love guns and the security they give me and the protection they have given me in the past. If you don't like guns, fine. Don't buy one. But just remember that criminals carry guns and knives. Shouldn't you? :idea:
I don't want to emulate criminals, the fact they they are armed doesn't make me want to arm myself with a gun, rather, I get that same sense of security from pepperspray and my own self-defense skills.

I can totally respect the opinions of gun owners, I can understand that they have strong convictions about their weapons. I have a hard time with the fact that the language of the constitution has been grossly misinterpreted, I have a problem with the control the gun industry/nra has over our elected officials, I have a problem when I hear my students talking about how they are going out to "shoot cactus" this weekend.

My encounters with guns have made me want to have nothing to do with them, rather than to arm myself.

I just respectfully disagree with your perspective....and I'll be shutting up now.
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Randy
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BDUs, etc.

Post by Randy » Aug 05 2002 12:54 pm

Pixelfrog:

There's another factor here. Some folks subscribe to the theory that the best gear out there, at any price, is the stuff Uncle Sam uses. I respectfully disagree, it's mostly "low-bid" procurement. The Supers used to be crawling with gun-toting folks, like Bob "Crazy Jake" Jacobs who had a camp north of Charlebois in LaBarge Canyon. Most of those types were "lost dutchman" hunter types. I've never had a problem with anyone armed in there.

Hunting is allowed in wilderness areas, and frankly the Supers have some great mule deer. I would not want to carry one out from where I've seen them, however.

There are a few bad apples in any crowd. Most of us who are serious gun lovers have a strong aversion to amateur weekend warriors who tend to accomplish nothing more than frightening those uncomfortable around guns; and polarizing those who could lean one way or another.

When not hunting, I rarely carry in the backcountry anymore. They are heavy, get in the way of most pack suspensions, and sometimes inadvertently make others uncomfortable. Like Rattlesnakes, the ones you see can make you more nervous than the ones you don't; so concealed carry is usually done out of politeness much more than stealth.

-Randy

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pixelfrog
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Post by pixelfrog » Aug 05 2002 1:26 pm

Hey Randy,

yeah that's actually something I forgot to think about, is the history of the Sups and all the people who've come there looking for Gold and such. I'm sure there's been a lot of unsavory characters that have been through there. Not really sure how many crazy old miner types with guns out there still wandering around but I can see carrying a gun more for this reason than protection from wild animals.

On that tangent does anyone know of anyone who still seriously looks for the lost dutchman's mine?

P

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Daryl
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Post by Daryl » Aug 05 2002 1:42 pm

Nobody is going to change anyone's mind in a forum like this, I suggest the gun/anti-gun preaching be dropped before we all start yelling at our monitors.
I choose to carry while hiking in some remote areas for my own reasons. It's my choice. If you chose not to, I will not say anything negative, stereotype, or attempt to change your mind. Please provide me the same courtesy.

Let's talk about something a little lighter like abortion, legalized drug use or religion... (all while hiking of course)
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ck_1
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Post by ck_1 » Aug 05 2002 1:47 pm

pixelfrog wrote: On that tangent does anyone know of anyone who still seriously looks for the lost dutchman's mine?
P
I'd say that Fritzski would be the resident HAZ expert on all things Sups, he'll probably have plenty to say...

I've seen people prospecting out there, but I'd use the term loosely...by the looks of them, they were more likely the survivalist type

The travel channel just did a big thing on AZ, one of the key attractions they advertised was searching for gold in the Sups...so I'd say yes, people do still head out there looking for their fortune
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Post by ck_1 » Aug 05 2002 1:51 pm

along these same lines....when I first moved here, a co-worker cautioned me about heading into the sups without protection...in his words...he claimed the areas along Apache Trail were frequently used as "hide-outs" for motorcycle gangs....

anybody else heard those rumors?


(and no, I have nothing against motorcyclists)
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Post by jeremy77777 » Aug 05 2002 2:05 pm

There is a small group of people that call themselves "the last dutchmen" that go out looking for it every other weekend. They have been for the past 11 years. Sad really...
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Post by jeremy77777 » Aug 05 2002 2:13 pm

And as for the other comments, I say again, unless you have been threatened and held at knife piont in the middle of the woods or had another bad incident with a brigand of some kind you wouldn't really understand. I hope none of you have to go though that. And p.s., the all wonderful pepper spray didn't work for my sister too well. All it did was help out that SOB by blinding her a bit. Think about that.
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Post by joebartels » Aug 05 2002 2:46 pm

The ol' gun topic again... you guys kill me
Get it, okay bad joke :lol:

This thread will undoubtedly be the largest thread soon as it was on the old forum. I remind everybody two things.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
You’d be wise to state your opinion and refrain from telling others how to post.


I feel ck1's concern on the just turned 18 year old crowd that has their new 4x4 and gun making statements such as "let’s go cactus huntin". As many of my past employees have made similar statements. "We're going desert huntin" which ranges from cactus to an all out assault on anything living. This sort of falls into the litter discussion in a way. Do you report the situation or not. I do, many don't. Those that don't may feel if they report such cases it will only piss off the accused prompting them to do more. I doubt they feel silence it the best solution they just don't feel there is a good solution yet.

Dutchman hunters do still exist. Considering the 1984 Wilderness Act doesn't allow further mining claims... anybody that believes the Dutchman is there and they have found it & want it for themselves, will protect it however they feel fit.

I like the thought of less permanent solutions like pepper spray & tazzers (however you spell it) But I'm not sure it'll do you much good from a distance. So then you get into I need a bigger weapon then the other guy. Personally, I'm not going to lug a cannon on a hike. On the same note if you get jumped, it may not matter what you have. Somebody can just as easily intentionally ram your car, if you feel you need a hummer then get it.

The NRA subject and spending... That's not really a gun issue in my mind. The same is true for gambling, churches, and whatever else has money to lobby. That's a structure issue. But hey, that's just my opinion.
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Post by BoyNhisDog » Aug 05 2002 3:01 pm

Holy Moly, go flying for a few hours and miss all the fun. :D

It doesn't hurt to be prepared. It doesn't bother me when I see folks going armed. I've had enough eighteen year olds surround the airplane in Mexico with their automatic rifles complete with grenede launchers. 8O

I guess each will just have to decide for himself. Personally I don't carry. Even if you do have a weapon, it would be very easy to get the drop on you before you could deploy it unless you carry it in your hand all the time or draw it when you see anyone or hear any noise. Men won't wait to give you a fair chance and they never did in the old West either except in fairy tales. The duffer died to the fast gun and the fast gun died to the tricky gun. Guns are heavy and carry a huge responsiblity. If you choose to take that on so be it. It is your right.

Paul said he is for the right to bear arms but the incident he recounted left him feeling strange and he related it here. That's all. There are wierdos running around out there all the time and he saw a couple, at least from his perspective. It ain't hunting season either. Maybe they were just playing dress up.

Jeremy, if you have been threatened and held at knife point then I can hardly blame you for trying to protect yourself. The only wild animal that I would arm myself against would be grizzlies. I hate bears but I just step around snakes and mountain lions attacks are so uncommon that I can't get too worked up over that. Personal perspective plays such a big part in our decisions. I think dying of thirst or hypothermia is a much higher probability than anything else out there. I go prepared for that.

Whatever your choice, be careful out there.
Glen

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Post by sidhayes » Aug 05 2002 3:03 pm

I find that the steeper the trail is, the higher caliber weapon I need to carry!!

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Post by Snick33 » Aug 05 2002 3:04 pm

Once in Jamica, we were confronted in the middle of the night by people claiming to be the police, they were not. It was ugly, we were two couples and my best friend had severe damage to his teeth after they were done.

The other incident was in the UP of Michigan, in the middle of the night we were visited by a group of very drunk native americans. We bought are way out of it with camping gear and canned food. There was no violence, but I swore that I'd never go in the wilderness without a pistol again. I do not proudly display my weapon, and it's just a 38 revolver that I keep in my pack. I can't imagine carrying some of the weapons these people pack, way too heavy for me. The reality of the world, is that there are nuts out there.

I do object to people using the National Forests as target ranges, and I do object to people who are so insecure that their whole life is defined by their guns, their shiny 4X4's and their haircuts.
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Post by evenstarx3 » Aug 05 2002 3:19 pm

I have nothing against responsible adults carrying guns; the key word being responsible. But, I think guns are far too easy to get by the irresponsible and we need to make it much tougher. Also think that, in order to buy a gun, you need to show proof that you've been through a course in proper handling and use of a gun. And I'm a dead shot with a rifle or a handgun, but by the time I get it out, on the trail, I'm probably just dead and I'm not into 60 pound packs like a certain HAZ'er who'll jump on that like a chicken on a june bug! :lol:
And finally, some of the weapons available out there aren't needed by anyone who isn't ready to start a war. Hell, attitude of too many seems to be, "I can't kill it with one shot so I'm gonna fill it with so much lead it'll fall down from trying to carry all that weight!"
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Post by landsinaz » Aug 05 2002 4:50 pm

Regarding the survivalist types...we ran into some para-military style group out by Fossil Springs...and I tend to think it's a little un-nerving when there are a dozen people in camo with various weapons yelling chants, but as long as they don't yell at me, it's alright. Otherwise, it seems like everytime I am out in the Superstitions, I run into one or two old west looking types replete with mules and 6 shooters. They used to just scowl at me until I started to carry a small Beretta on my belt--now they just say howdy! Go figure. I always figure Live and let live, ( And that goes for letting cactus and wild life live, too!) :)
Someone who would trade freedom for security, deserves neither. Benjamin Franklin

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