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New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 18 2010 7:36 pm
by base871
So now that everyone in the state can carry concealed soon, I was just wondering what the benefit of having my ccw permit is. I can only think of 3- 1) Still dont have to do the NCIS background check. 2)Can carry in a bar or places serving food. 3) Can carry concealed in 32 other states. Anyone know of any other good reasons to renew it?
Also, what about on NPS land? The law states that you must follow the rules of the state the park is in. Does that mean once the new law takes effect we can all carry conceled too?

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 12:08 pm
by dysfunction
This is one of those arguments for which there will be no winner. No one will ever change the mind of a someone with a diametrically opposed viewpoint on this issue.. so ANY attempt to is simply beating a dead horse..

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 12:10 pm
by te_wa
i see this as less "carrying a gun= paranoia"
and more of overstating the potential facts.
Im not sure that everyone with a gun wants to carry it "everywhere you go" "at all times" and "always"
I certainly enjoy being able to carry, in appropriate situations, and would only carry a firearm on my person maybe once per month.
I know a large handful of responsible gun owners who are personal friends and would find it the same case, they dont carry all the time or even nearly so.

i guess the person you are attempting to point out is out there, but i would argue strongly that it is NOT the norm.
i see this as more of "chronic complaining= Paranoia"
give it a rest

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 12:22 pm
by Jim_H
Well, the posts about people carrying in to bathrooms, that prompted the question. Maybe in AK it's a bear issue. I was in the Camp Verde Wendy's last October and spotted two guys carrying. I think they were hunters, but I don't remember. They were fine polite people and what ever.....blah blah blah. I don't care about all that. Just because I could see those two carrying doesn't mean there weren't three others who were carrying and I couldn't see it. Still, I don't get it, and I would like to know what the reasoning is for some people. It sounds like a lot of people just want to be able to do. I added the paranoia part because of experience with an old friend who was and is very much paranoid and used government oppression (as if he could ever own enough fire power to combat the government) to justify his obsession with guns. He's a fine person (though weird in other areas) and the gun thing is mostly just one small aspect of his life, but it does stand out if you go camping with him. If experience is beating a dead horse, one has to point our that so are the very nature of these forum threads. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it or post in it. The fact that there doesn't seem to be an articulated answer, just :bdh: as a answer suggest that paranoia could very well be the reason for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, just asking a question. Obviously, this is like religion, and any question does become an argument, so in that vein it isn't even worth perusing, and then you get the near dichotomy of people who fiercely support and view a question as :bdh: designed to provoke endless argument and the "they must be paranoid nuts" crowd.

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 12:25 pm
by dysfunction
Tell you what, if I happen to be carrying.. I will be carrying it into the bathroom with me. To do otherwise would be flat out irresponsible. Personally, the woman who lost her weapon in the bathroom... is one person who shouldn't be carrying, period.

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 12:27 pm
by fairweather8588
(back on topic)
The money is used to help cover costs for enforcing laws related to the Highway Patrol, operating the concealed-carry weapon-licensing program and impounding vehicles.
Quote from the article I was thinking of, so this could be another reason to keep renewing your permit if you chose to do so

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 12:30 pm
by Jim_H
Responsibility, irresponsibility, who should and who shouldn't, those are all peripheral. Like I said way back, I support Free Speech, but I don't stand on street corners. I'm not arguing your legal right or your mental status. Forget those issues.

Maybe I phrased it too broadly. Let me ask it this way. If you want to be able to carry concealed weapons, why is this?

Help me to better understand. Often, failure to understand leads to fear, rash judgements, and then deep mistrust, and eventually backlash. I think we are seeing some of that here. Gaining a better understanding can mitigate that. If it is nothing more than, "I want to be able to", then just say it. I want to be able to read about Jerry Falwell getting drunk and having sex with his mother in an outhouse because I want to be able to write that Richard Cheney/ Barack Obama/ Bill Clinton/ Jan Brewer are xxxxxx.

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 12:33 pm
by dysfunction
Chet P wrote:Responsibility, irresponsibility, who should and who shouldn't, those are all peripheral. Like I said way back, I support Free Speech, but I don't stand on street corners. I'm not arguing your legal right or your mental status. Forget those issues.
So what exactly IS your argument, because if you're discarding all these issues.. it doesn't seem that you have one.

Forget it, this is pointless anyway :sl:

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 12:36 pm
by Jim_H
dysfunction wrote:
Chet P wrote:Responsibility, irresponsibility, who should and who shouldn't, those are all peripheral. Like I said way back, I support Free Speech, but I don't stand on street corners. I'm not arguing your legal right or your mental status. Forget those issues.
So what exactly IS your argument, because if you're discarding all these issues.. it doesn't seem that you have one.

Forget it, this is pointless anyway :sl:

I think that is the problem here. You think I am arguing with you. I am not arguing with you, or anyone else. People seemed to see it as that, but it is not, and was never intended to be that. I'm sorry you can't see things for what they are, and immediately jump from questioning something to seeing it as an argument. Not everything is an argument. If you can't see that, well then ](*,)

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:32 pm
by te_wa
Chet P wrote:If you want to be able to carry concealed weapons, why is this?
J- it is not that i want to, it is that i legally can.
2 reasons why i choose to legally carry concealed, under certain situations, are:
1) i choose not to flash my piece in plain sight because some ppl get offended/scared/paranoid at the sight of a person with a sidearm on their hip, and i respect that some dont like to see it, even if they are irrational.
b) it seems that studies still support the original evidence that in areas where concealed weapons can be carried legally (ccw or not) violent crimes take an immediate, drastic, and recongnizable decline.

yep, im sure there are kooks who dress up in combat costumes and even cook dinner for their guns. "whats wrong, little gun? dont you want your spinach? ok, ill eat it for you"
yes, this scenario is comical but maybe it happens. im not one of those kooks.

another scenario is the ppl who pack heat on hikes because they are afraid of animal attacks. sure, bear attacks are very rare and fatal bear attacks are even moreso, but i gotta tell you, in a toungue in cheek kinda way, that the gal who was fatally mauled by a pissed off black bear sure wished she had a .40 s&w at the time.. right?

anyway, i dont even carry into the backcountry. i dont even carry at all. i dont even own a gun. but i do have my eye on this little gem of a Sig p226 9mm that my buddy has for sale. ;)

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:38 pm
by chumley
Chet P wrote:I don't understand the fetish with carrying a gun everywhere you go. What is it that prompts this need? Can this be explained to me?
Nope. It can't be explained to you.

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:44 pm
by azbackpackr
I'm sure there is a fair amount of paranoia. I have been around the gun crowd for many years, and there is that aspect to it, depending upon the person.

As for carrying it everywhere, there is always discussion having to do with mass murderers/spree killers, that if there were several people nearby carrying guns, that the mass murderer could have been stopped. This has been discussed re: Virginia Tech, the Killeen Texas Luby's, Columbine, San Ysidro McDonald's in 1984, etc. etc. etc. The question is always, "What if there had been one or two or three armed citizens at those scenes?" Which there weren't of course. Surprising though, in the case of the Luby's in Texas, that there were no armed citizens in the cafeteria at the time.

Also, if you read the news articles published in gun magazines, usually a column entitled "Armed Citizen" or something like that, you will see that there really are a fair number of times every month when a firearm is used by an individual for self-defense. Most often in home break-ins and in liquor store robberies and such. I am not sure how many times a year it occurs on average, but often enough.

So there are rational reasons for the philosophy that we should have an armed citizenry. Not that I really want to bother with dragging a gun around all the time myself (been there, done that, quit that years ago), but I don't think it is all paranoia.

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:46 pm
by Jeffshadows
I'll try to answer your question jhodlofexperiencechetpbuckminsterfullerene:

I have a CCW and have since I was no longer able to carry under a federal badge. I always carry unconcealed when I carry on a hike. The time it takes to get a concealed weapon out renders that weapon flat-out useless in a wilderness self-defense context. I rarely ever carry a handgun concealed on my person. When I do, it's there because I'm going somewhere, transporting something, or in some other situation where I might be likely to encounter someone who wants to do me harm that will have a gun of his or her own. These situations arise about once or twice a year and generally relate to my profession more than personal interactions. The reason I have the gun concealed is to prevent the escalation of force. If things go sideways and I have to manhandle someone, that's how it will go. I would NEVER draw on an unarmed assailant. I've seen far too many unarmed people killed already for one lifetime.

A lot of people still live with delusions of the Old West and dream they're going to kill a bandit out by the border, or whatever, and become a local hero. I've met plenty of guys that carry concealed because they think the stumble-bum at the local Albertson's is going to rob them, some "gang-banger" is going to carjack their old, beat-up Volvo, etc, etc. It's really just a form of self-delusion imagining oneself to occupy a much more important sphere in the universe than is factually so. Some are just plain afraid people will actually call them out on their bravado, as well. It can really be ridiculous and sometimes just plain dangerous. I can't imagine a reason for anyone to have a gun at a government town hall meeting, for example.

People reading this will think I'm some kind of gun-grabber in disguise but nothing can be further from the truth. I would stand up right next to you to defend the 2nd Amendment to the end, but I also believe we need more stringent regulation and control, not less. I believe so because I think it's the best way to protect the gun ownership rights of responsible people like myself.

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:48 pm
by Jeffshadows
te-wa wrote: but i do have my eye on this little gem of a Sig p226 9mm that my buddy has for sale. ;)
The sigs are nice weapons. If you pick it up there's a shop here in town that just got a load of old police hi-cap mags in that they have on clearance...

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:51 pm
by te_wa
huh. and i just happen to be "here in town" ;)

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:52 pm
by Jim_H
Thank you. I respect your answers. I regret having posted the question with the paranoid portion, as even though I was asking by pointing out that the "they must be paranoid" feeling of the non-gun side seems to be nearly consensus, I know that simply can't be the case across the board and it did not have the intended effect. While I don't own a gun, I also don't have any particularly strong feelings on the subject either, though I am curious about the whys of it.

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:53 pm
by Jeffshadows
Oh, and contrary to popular belief, I don't carry a concealed weapon to shoot dogs or nude hikers... :sl:

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:55 pm
by Jeffshadows
Chet P wrote:Thank you. I respect your answers. I regret having posted the question with the paranoid portion, as even though I was asking by pointing out that the "they must be paranoid" feeling of the non-gun side seems to be nearly consensus, I know that simply can't be the case across the board and it did not have the intended effect. While I don't own a gun, I also don't have any particularly strong feelings on the subject either, though I am curious about the whys of it.
I don't feel that you have anything to apologize for; some concealed carriers are genuinely paranoid. I knew a few growing up. One of my best friends had a dad that was convinced the BATF was coming to get him any second.

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:56 pm
by Sun_Ray
Jeff, you got me thinking....but what if a nude person s**t on your front lawn? :sl:

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 1:58 pm
by Jeffshadows
Sun Ray wrote:Jeff, you got me thinking....but what if a nude person s**t on your front lawn? :sl:
Why? You have something planned? :D
I think I would be so shocked by the occurrence that I would forget to grab the garden hose and spray him or her...

Re: New AZ CCW law

Posted: May 19 2010 2:02 pm
by Sun_Ray
Jeff you're to easy. I can see it now... you are on a group hike with HAZ members.... they get up before you and start cooking and eating breakfast in the nude! It would be so great I bet we could even get the gals to join in the fun! Sorry you will not be at the ABC camping outing this weekend. Will have to meet you on another trip.....Brian