New AZ CCW law

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base871
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New AZ CCW law

Post by base871 » May 18 2010 7:36 pm

So now that everyone in the state can carry concealed soon, I was just wondering what the benefit of having my ccw permit is. I can only think of 3- 1) Still dont have to do the NCIS background check. 2)Can carry in a bar or places serving food. 3) Can carry concealed in 32 other states. Anyone know of any other good reasons to renew it?
Also, what about on NPS land? The law states that you must follow the rules of the state the park is in. Does that mean once the new law takes effect we can all carry conceled too?
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Jeffshadows » May 19 2010 2:20 pm

Sun Ray wrote:Jeff you're to easy. I can see it now... you are on a group hike with HAZ members.... they get up before you and start cooking and eating breakfast in the nude! It would be so great I bet we could even get the gals to join in the fun! Sorry you will not be at the ABC camping outing this weekend. Will have to meet you on another trip.....Brian
Yep, too much going on right now, unfortunately. We will bump into one another eventually! :sweat:
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allanalxndr
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by allanalxndr » May 19 2010 3:44 pm

Chet P wrote:So, what is it, really? Don't give us in the non-believer crowd that :bdh: response, because it doesn't answer the question.
What's the need of justification to you when you don't really care what the answer is? Does it affect you in some way if someone is carrying openly or concealed? Your paranoia? Your mind is already made up, and therefore your need for an explanation is pointless. You support Free Speech, but don't care what others have to say. You can't pick and choose parts of the Constitution to respect and support, its all or nothing kind of deal. You are currently supporting your Free Speech right to tramp on those who chose to exercise their 2nd amendment right. Hypocrisy? Whether someone chooses to carry because they have the right or so called "paranoia" :roll: or for other reasons, its their personal choice and doesn't affect you.

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by te_wa » May 19 2010 3:50 pm

"carry" on... :sl:
:D

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by fairweather8588 » May 19 2010 3:51 pm

Zing!


:gun:
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by joebartels » May 19 2010 3:59 pm

If you have an opinion then state it. Supporting your opinion with facts is best. Responding to members you disagree with is permitted if courteous.
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base871
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by base871 » May 19 2010 4:06 pm

The reason I carry is the same reason I wear a seatbelt. Because you never know.

So back on the thread topic, what are the current ccw holders on here planning on doing? Renew when its time or let it go?
Will we even be able to renew?
If they put a Dem back in office, and they change the law again, will we be grandfathered?
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by PaleoRob » May 19 2010 4:43 pm

Renewal is possible and easier.
Jim, it is like asking why someone drives a Chevy instead of a Ford, or why you prefer brunettes over blonds. It is a personal preference that can be very hard for some people to articulate. We all have the ability to carry, few do so, even fewer do so every day. Why depends on the person, the mood, the "situation", etc. I guess I also really don't see much of a need to explain it - it is possible to do so, and people occasionally do. Why is their own business. You could be one of those dudes down at Heritage Square yelling about Monsanto, but you chose not to. Why not? Personally, I don't care why. You seem to continually change your user name, to my confusion, but while I wonder at the purpose it is your reason, not mine, so I'm not going to actually question you or even confront you about. It is your decision, and until it affects me, you can change your name twice a day for all I care. If you tried to change my name, that's where it would affect me.
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Al_HikesAZ » May 19 2010 4:49 pm

base871 wrote:The reason I carry is the same reason I wear a seatbelt. Because you never know.
So back on the thread topic, what are the current ccw holders on here planning on doing? Renew when its time or let it go?
Will we even be able to renew?
If they put a Dem back in office, and they change the law again, will we be grandfathered?
Agreed. I prefer to be safe not sorry. I hope and pray that I never need my seatbelt or weapon.
Renew.
Yes.
It would require both Democratic Legislative and Executive Branches. I almost hope they go back to the Qualification and Registration system that we had. I don't mind passing a test and qualifying on the range. I was shocked and appalled by the poor markmanship of some of the people in my class who got a CCW. And I don't care that the DPS and FBI know me.

I carry concealed so that people who might be offended by open carry are oblivious. I have my CCW so that I can carry in my truck and pack legally.

My wife and neighbor considered me sort of a gun freak until his daughter's druggie boyfriend started with the death threats. It's not paranoia when someone is really after you. And by then it might be too late. Court Orders aren't worth a hill of beans when some meth-addled punk gets the wrong idea in his head. Yeah I would get the Court Order, but I would keep my Mossberg within reach.

I find it enlightening to look at what Mahatma Gandhi had to say about guns and gun control:
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn."
Mahatma Gandhi, "An Autobiography OR The story of my experiments with truth", Chapter 27, Recruiting Campaign, from a leaflet urging Indians to serve with the British Army in World War II. [2]
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te_wa
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by te_wa » May 19 2010 4:58 pm

jeffmacewen wrote:Oh, and contrary to popular belief, I don't carry a concealed weapon to shoot dogs or nude hikers... :sl:
"supporting nudist illegal immigrants with off-leash dogs since 1999, paid for by your generous tax dollars"
Id give $2000 to see you in THAT T-shirt
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Thoreau
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Thoreau » May 19 2010 8:11 pm

You can also carry within 1000 feet of a school (nullifies the federal GFSZ rule.)

I need to do some more reading myself on the new rules, but I could've sworn I saw something that suggested that AZ would essentially require one to notify any law enforcement officer that you were carrying if they initiate any contact with you (such as a traffic stop.) These days that is NOT required, but is often considered to be a good idea as a courtesy to the officer. The best way most accomplish that task is to hand the officer the CCW card along with driver's license. Keeping the permit would keep that option open.

I know some people think the opposite, but I also believe that if you are ever involved in an incident, being able to show training might help in court. Either way, I'll be keeping my CCW permit renewed =)
base871 wrote:You cant carry into a federal building, but I do know that they have to have a lock box to keep your firearm in while you enter the building. Just ask.
I'm not too far up to speed on federal laws (other than the national park basics) but are you certain on this one? I know this applies for the state of Arizona and our gov-run buildings, libraries and courthouses being prime examples, but I wasn't aware of it being at the fed level too.
fairweather8588 wrote:I think the current system is also a means of providing funding for the DPS, correct?
I *really* doubt that the $60 every 5 years provides any surplus after the paperwork, records-keeping, fingerprinting, background checks, etc.
Chet P wrote:Regardless, I don't understand the fetish with carrying a gun everywhere you go. So, what is it, really? Don't give us in the non-believer crowd that :bdh: response, because it doesn't answer the question.
The fact that you use provocative terms like 'fetish' to describe a basic activity that you don't seem to approve of pretty much says it all. No answer from the 'believer' crowd would appease you or your 'crowd' so we'll just have to agree to disagree, and/or take it elsewhere, such as the other thread, as suggested.

Edit: I'm reading through SB1108 and so far I think i may have been remembering incorrectly regarding the duty-to-inform issue. So far, I can find nothing that changes it from the way it currently stands (which is that you have no duty to inform an officer that you are carrying during an official contact, unless asked.)

Code: Select all

A.  A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
1.  Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation:
(b)  When contacted by a law enforcement officer and failing to answer the officer if the officer asks whether the person is carrying a concealed deadly weapon;
Alas, I am not a lawyer, so use this information at your own risk, find a lawyer, or read the law yourself to be certain =)
Last edited by Thoreau on May 19 2010 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Jim_H » May 19 2010 8:55 pm

allanalxndr just seems to be angry at everyone who doesn't think just like him, or who questions something he likes. He also makes a bunch of assumptions that are baseless and have nothing to do with what was posted before he chimed in. What ever.

Jeff, I'm not apologizing so much as saying that by including that text produced way more emotion than I thought it would and created responses which read into my post far more (see above) and that did not have the intended effect, so I regretted incuding that.

Rob, I see your point. I as wrote a while back, I posted my question after reading the Alaska Women in Bathroom post. So it was really more of a, "huh, what is this?" then a thoughtful, calculated move to open the debate to settle the gun question, and it wasn't supposed to be confrontational. The use of the little moving smiles seems to be done to be little or irritate, so I see those as more confrontational than words. Whats all the fuss about me changing my name?

Al, I once used the argument that I wanted to carry and use a water filter in the Sierra Nevada because I would rather be safe than sorry. To me, that is one of the best arguements there is for wanting to have a tool at your disposal. Now, in that forum the Moderator is some sort of a water NAZI and he edited my post and locked the thread because he didn't like what I posted. To him, it didn't matter that I may have thought the water in the high Sierra was pure, the fact that I even considered there may be contamination and would want to hedge on safety by filtering meant that I had crossed a line. I'm not going to argue that you shouldn't be able to feel safe.

Either way, I meant what I said before. I have no particularly strong feelings on the subject. Obviously, some have extremely strong feelings about it. To that end, I'd rather get back to hiking.
Last edited by Jim_H on May 19 2010 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thoreau
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Thoreau » May 19 2010 9:14 pm

azbackpackr wrote:I'm sure there is a fair amount of paranoia. I have been around the gun crowd for many years, and there is that aspect to it, depending upon the person.

As for carrying it everywhere, there is always discussion having to do with mass murderers/spree killers, that if there were several people nearby carrying guns, that the mass murderer could have been stopped. This has been discussed re: Virginia Tech, the Killeen Texas Luby's, Columbine, San Ysidro McDonald's in 1984, etc. etc. etc. The question is always, "What if there had been one or two or three armed citizens at those scenes?" Which there weren't of course. Surprising though, in the case of the Luby's in Texas, that there were no armed citizens in the cafeteria at the time.

Also, if you read the news articles published in gun magazines, usually a column entitled "Armed Citizen" or something like that, you will see that there really are a fair number of times every month when a firearm is used by an individual for self-defense. Most often in home break-ins and in liquor store robberies and such. I am not sure how many times a year it occurs on average, but often enough.

So there are rational reasons for the philosophy that we should have an armed citizenry. Not that I really want to bother with dragging a gun around all the time myself (been there, done that, quit that years ago), but I don't think it is all paranoia.
On the subject of why there weren't more armed Texans in the Luby's incident... that incident happened in 1991. The Texas concealed handgun license law didn't pass until 1993. Open carry is (to this day) illegal in Texas as well.

Cases like that are certainly a part of why I carry whenever I can legally do so. I look at it like an insurance policy. I hope I never need it, but the only way for it to save me is for it to be available at all times since I can't predict the future. Simply put, I don't wish to make myself the easiest target (which is also part of why I generally prefer open carrying.)

Now, whether I carry openly or concealed is another story. If I'm in a place where it simply wouldn't be a good thing for people to know I'm carrying, then it is concealed. If the place I'm at serves alcohol, law says it MUST be concealed. If it's cold outside and I'm wearing a jacket, chances are it's covered/concealed by the jacket. If the shirt I'm wearing just doesn't fit right around an open-carry holster, or I don't wish to tuck my shirt in, it's probably concealed. On the flip side, if it's just about any other situation, it's generally visible.

$0.02 :)

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by PaleoRob » May 19 2010 9:21 pm

Chet P wrote:Whats all the fuss about me changing my name?
Just confuses me. I see a thread from someone I haven't seen the name of before with a strange picture and I figure its a new user. Click on the thread and realize it is you! My mind is quick in some ways, but slow in name-related things. That is all, for me at least.
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Al_HikesAZ » May 19 2010 9:54 pm

te-wa wrote:that the gal who was fatally mauled by a pissed off black bear sure wished she had a .40 s&w at the time.. right?
Not sure a 40cal (10mm) would have helped her very much. She would have needed the presence of mind to hit it in the heart or get an angle through the shoulder to get the heart. Most people would probably just shoot for the head and I'm not sure a 40cal would penetrate that skull. Or they would shoot for the body mass without hitting the heart which won't do much right away on a black bear. My cousin put an arrow through a black bear's heart when it was raised up on it's haunches and it came charging, his second arrow went in through the shoulder at the right angle to hit the heart and drop it.
azbackpackr wrote:This has been discussed re: Virginia Tech, the Killeen Texas Luby's, Columbine, San Ysidro McDonald's in 1984, etc. etc. etc. The question is always, "What if there had been one or two or three armed citizens at those scenes?"
I've thought about situations like these. I don't think it's as easy as most people think. My concern would be getting a clean shot. You have to worry about what's behind the target. I would hate to think that I penetrated the target and wounded or killed a kid. I would drop to a knee or prone so that my angle was up. But with the adrenaline and the confusion and never having been in such a situation, I can't say what I could really do. Other than maybe drawing the killer's attention and fire. . . which would really p*ss off my wife. Even professional Law Enforcement Officers who train for these situations can't predict the outcomes.
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by JimmyLyding » May 19 2010 10:14 pm

A couple of points:
*I was in downtown Phoenix today, and I couldn't help but notice that EVERY government building has a "no weapons" sign on public entrances. Our state government has done about everything in its power to allow people to carry guns, concealed or otherwise, anywhere other than places where the owner doesn't want them. Of course this includes every public government building. Somewhat ironic if you ask me.

*Why do we have to license our dogs, but not our guns? I own 12 guns, and am more than willing to register every single one of them. What is the problem with registering a gun? Are people so paranoid as to think that the government is going to take their guns away? I'm not worried in the least about the gub'mint confiscating my firearms, but I most certainly am worried about complete idiots and violent (un-convicted) criminals being able to easily acquire all sorts of deadly weapons. I'm also very worried about people who are paranoid enough to think that the government is going to take away their guns being allowed to possess firearms because those people are obviously unhinged.

*I have a hard time believing that our state legislature has passed all of these laws that ease gun control out of a sincere desire to improve the safety of our citizenry. It seems obvious to me that these laws were passed due to ideological fervor and the desire to cater to the whims of the NRA.

*I threw away my lifetime NRA membership years ago when it became obvious to me that many of their stances are contrary to the public good. The NRA views any and all restrictions on firearm ownership (i.e. anything less than a howitzer) as the first step towards banning all firearms. This is the same as arguing that speed limits are the first step towards the banning of automobiles.

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by JimmyLyding » May 19 2010 10:21 pm

Al_HikesAZ wrote:
te-wa wrote:that the gal who was fatally mauled by a pissed off black bear sure wished she had a .40 s&w at the time.. right?
Not sure a 40cal (10mm) would have helped her very much. She would have needed the presence of mind to hit it in the heart or get an angle through the shoulder to get the heart. Most people would probably just shoot for the head and I'm not sure a 40cal would penetrate that skull. Or they would shoot for the body mass without hitting the heart which won't do much right away on a black bear. My cousin put an arrow through a black bear's heart when it was raised up on it's haunches and it came charging, his second arrow went in through the shoulder at the right angle to hit the heart and drop it.
azbackpackr wrote:This has been discussed re: Virginia Tech, the Killeen Texas Luby's, Columbine, San Ysidro McDonald's in 1984, etc. etc. etc. The question is always, "What if there had been one or two or three armed citizens at those scenes?"
I've thought about situations like these. I don't think it's as easy as most people think. My concern would be getting a clean shot. You have to worry about what's behind the target. I would hate to think that I penetrated the target and wounded or killed a kid. I would drop to a knee or prone so that my angle was up. But with the adrenaline and the confusion and never having been in such a situation, I can't say what I could really do. Other than maybe drawing the killer's attention and fire. . . which would really p*ss off my wife. Even professional Law Enforcement Officers who train for these situations can't predict the outcomes.
Al obliquely references a huge truth w/ respect to this issue. What good is it to carry a gun if one doesn't have the confidence or know-how to use it effectively? What were the most likely outcomes had someone pulled a Ladyhawk out of her purse or a .40-cal out of a holster when that heavily-armed madman was spraying the San Ysidro McDonald's? The most likely outcome would be that the civilian who pulled out their pistol would get shot by the madman unless they got in a head-shot because the madman was on a suicide mission.

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by allanalxndr » May 19 2010 10:38 pm

Chet P wrote:allanalxndr just seems to be angry at everyone who doesn't think just like him, or who questions something he likes. He also makes a bunch of assumptions that are baseless and have nothing to do with what was posted before he chimed in. What ever.
Chet, I am not angry at you or anyone else with different opinions on things I like or don’t like. I was simply trying to state (and obviously not that well) that why one person chooses to exercise a right to bear arms is up to them, as it would be for you to exercise your right to free speech. You, I, or anyone else don’t need to defend their rights that the constitution gives its citizens of the United States to voice their opinion, why should the 2nd amendment be any different from the 1st. If someone were to ask why you (generic term for people, not you specifically) voice your opinion, most people would say because it’s their right to do so. What really pushes my buttons is when someone uses their right of free speech because they can, to question a right of equal value (2nd amendment) of someone else. Please forgive me if you feel I’ve attacked you (I have a way with words :)), but I hope you can see my logic in the rights of the amendments and how they are all equally important and the reason why someone exercises them really doesn’t matter. If you support one, you should really support all of them.
Carrying a gun is much like an insurance policy. You have it in the event that you need it. No one can predict the time or place that such an event would occur. I believe in personal responsibility for ones safety and not being dependent on police officers or any other authority or government entity. There are certain circumstances in which I feel a great need for me to carry each and every day, not because I’m paranoid or feel entitled or have a sick fetish. I would rather have it then not need it, then need it and not have it. Again, Sorry for ruffling feathers.
base871 wrote: So back on the thread topic, what are the current ccw holders on here planning on doing? Renew when its time or let it go?
I plan on renewing mine and obtain the UT or FL permit for the states that have dropped or will drop AZ because of our new laws.

-Allan

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by JimmyLyding » May 19 2010 10:50 pm

The 1st Amendment does not guarantee the absolute right to free speech. One is not allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, for example.
The 2nd Amendment is exactly the same in that it does not guarantee the absolute right to bear arms. There's that whole "well regulated militia" part, and no reasonable person believes that the "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" refers to the Framers' belief that the government has no right to regulate what kinds of arms can be possessed.
Of course it is instructive for one to determine whether one believes the Constitution is a "living" document or set-in-stone. Those who believe it is a living document think the Constitution is designed to mean different things during different times, and those who believe it is set-in-stone believe that the rules it set in the context of the year 1776 still apply even though the condition of our nation is far different than it was when the Constitution was written.

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Thoreau » May 20 2010 6:33 am

Jim Lyding wrote:A couple of points:
*I was in downtown Phoenix today, and I couldn't help but notice that EVERY government building has a "no weapons" sign on public entrances. Our state government has done about everything in its power to allow people to carry guns, concealed or otherwise, anywhere other than places where the owner doesn't want them. Of course this includes every public government building. Somewhat ironic if you ask me.
I call it something else entirely, although it shares the same last 5 letters and starts with "mo." =)
Jim Lyding wrote:*Why do we have to license our dogs, but not our guns? I own 12 guns, and am more than willing to register every single one of them. What is the problem with registering a gun? Are people so paranoid as to think that the government is going to take their guns away? I'm not worried in the least about the gub'mint confiscating my firearms, but I most certainly am worried about complete idiots and violent (un-convicted) criminals being able to easily acquire all sorts of deadly weapons. I'm also very worried about people who are paranoid enough to think that the government is going to take away their guns being allowed to possess firearms because those people are obviously unhinged.
In order: Our dogs are not god-given, constitutionally protected rights. Firearms are. Wether you're worried about the government having a registration list or not, or showing up with the evil black helicopters isn't really relevant so much as the fact that there is no NEED or REASON for them to have that data. Crimes are very seldom committed with a gun registered under the name of said criminal. Also, you state that you're worried about, for example, 'violent (un-convicted) criminals' being able to get guns. How exactly does registering prevent that? If the crime hasn't been convicted, first and foremost, they are INNOCENT by law. Second, you can't take away protected rights until such conviction. Once they DO have a record, then they are no longer able to walk into Wal-Mart or Scottsdale Gun Club and buy a gun since the NICS check will bounce them. They will, get this, go shopping in some dark alley and put the black market to use for them. How is that gun registration helping here?
Jim Lyding wrote:*I have a hard time believing that our state legislature has passed all of these laws that ease gun control out of a sincere desire to improve the safety of our citizenry. It seems obvious to me that these laws were passed due to ideological fervor and the desire to cater to the whims of the NRA.
I'd say these laws were passed (rather, past laws have been removed) in order to restore freedoms that have been guaranteed to us by our founding fathers. You don't NEED the excuse of "it's for safety" when the simple fact of the matter is that the infringing laws were unconstitutional to begin with.
Jim Lyding wrote:*I threw away my lifetime NRA membership years ago when it became obvious to me that many of their stances are contrary to the public good. The NRA views any and all restrictions on firearm ownership (i.e. anything less than a howitzer) as the first step towards banning all firearms. This is the same as arguing that speed limits are the first step towards the banning of automobiles.
I stopped paying for mine because they are mainly a gutless freak show, save for a few good (GREAT) apples such as our own Buz Mills and the classic Ted Nugent. The NRA has fallen victim to DC politics to a great extent. Instead, my money goes to the Arizona Citizen's Defense League (azcdl.org.) Believe it or not, the NRA had virtually NOTHING to do with any of the laws that have passed in the last year in AZ, and the AZCDL had *EVERYTHING* to do with them.

Thanks to them, in the last year or two alone, we have

* lost the restrictions on self-defense simply because a restaurant sells alcohol
* clarified what an 'official' sign should be and where it should be located to be seen to allow business serving alcohol to ban firearms on their property)
* Regained the right to store our own firearms in our own vehicles while on private property (ie, at work) which also kinda restored our right to self defense during commutes
* enacted defensive display laws so that actually firing isn' the FIRST legal resort anymore
* Finally made a person innocent until proven guilty in a self-defense shooting incident (a la Harold Fish)
* Told the Fed to shove it when it comes to firearm regulation when the interstate commerce clause doesn't grant them authority
* strengthened state preemption and parks-carry
* explicitly banned any form of gun registration by the state/local government
* removed the government permission slip to be able to wear a jacket while carrying a gun (the law that is the main subject of this thread)

And a heck of a lot more. So yeah, I agree, the NRA is pretty useless, especially compared to the local forces at work who actually care about our rights =)
allanalxndr wrote:I plan on renewing mine and obtain the UT or FL permit for the states that have dropped or will drop AZ because of our new laws.
I can't imagine any actual reason for states to drop reciprocity with AZ over this new law since it doesn't change the CCW permit , save for adding more options for training for the permit. Of course, I understand that the reason Nevada doesn't recognize our permit is simply because we don't have a photo on it. Heh, gotta love it =)

For the record, based on CURRENT reciprocity data, getting the Utah permit would only add Washington and Minnesota, while the Florida permit would add in Washington as well. (my source http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry ... _maps.html)

Just something to keep in mind when it comes to paying for those other permits and any requirements they may have.

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te_wa
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by te_wa » May 20 2010 8:06 am

just be happy that our bill of rights granted us the right to Bear Arms.
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Although, giving up opposable thumbs may have its consequences.
:D

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