New AZ CCW law

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base871
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New AZ CCW law

Post by base871 » May 18 2010 7:36 pm

So now that everyone in the state can carry concealed soon, I was just wondering what the benefit of having my ccw permit is. I can only think of 3- 1) Still dont have to do the NCIS background check. 2)Can carry in a bar or places serving food. 3) Can carry concealed in 32 other states. Anyone know of any other good reasons to renew it?
Also, what about on NPS land? The law states that you must follow the rules of the state the park is in. Does that mean once the new law takes effect we can all carry conceled too?
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by JimmyLyding » May 20 2010 2:47 pm

Thoreau wrote:
Jim Lyding wrote:A couple of points:
*I was in downtown Phoenix today, and I couldn't help but notice that EVERY government building has a "no weapons" sign on public entrances. Our state government has done about everything in its power to allow people to carry guns, concealed or otherwise, anywhere other than places where the owner doesn't want them. Of course this includes every public government building. Somewhat ironic if you ask me.
I call it something else entirely, although it shares the same last 5 letters and starts with "mo." =)
Jim Lyding wrote:*Why do we have to license our dogs, but not our guns? I own 12 guns, and am more than willing to register every single one of them. What is the problem with registering a gun? Are people so paranoid as to think that the government is going to take their guns away? I'm not worried in the least about the gub'mint confiscating my firearms, but I most certainly am worried about complete idiots and violent (un-convicted) criminals being able to easily acquire all sorts of deadly weapons. I'm also very worried about people who are paranoid enough to think that the government is going to take away their guns being allowed to possess firearms because those people are obviously unhinged.
In order: Our dogs are not god-given, constitutionally protected rights. Firearms are. The Constitution was not given to us by God. Wether you're worried about the government having a registration list or not, or showing up with the evil black helicopters isn't really relevant so much as the fact that there is no NEED or REASON for them to have that data. Crimes are very seldom committed with a gun registered under the name of said criminal. Also, you state that you're worried about, for example, 'violent (un-convicted) criminals' being able to get guns. You're missing my point. Don't you think that we would reduce gun-driven crime if every gun purchased had to be registered? I.e. getting rid of the loopholes that allow people like Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris from buying guns at gunshows w/out registering them? How exactly does registering prevent that? If the crime hasn't been convicted, first and foremost, they are INNOCENT by law. Second, you can't take away protected rights until such conviction. Once they DO have a record, then they are no longer able to walk into Wal-Mart or Scottsdale Gun Club and buy a gun since the NICS check will bounce them. They will, get this, go shopping in some dark alley and put the black market to use for them. How is that gun registration helping here? Because it would then be obvious to law enforcement that anyone carrying an un-registered gun is most likely someone with something to hide. Ask a law enforcement officer from the East Coast. It's not about going after law-abiding citizens (because law-abiding citizens in more enlightened states have to register their firearms), but rather a tool to take down criminals.
Jim Lyding wrote:*I have a hard time believing that our state legislature has passed all of these laws that ease gun control out of a sincere desire to improve the safety of our citizenry. It seems obvious to me that these laws were passed due to ideological fervor and the desire to cater to the whims of the NRA.
I'd say these laws were passed (rather, past laws have been removed) in order to restore freedoms that have been guaranteed to us by our founding fathers. You don't NEED the excuse of "it's for safety" when the simple fact of the matter is that the infringing laws were unconstitutional to begin with. Gun restrictions in other states have largely been upheld over and over. Don't get me wrong: I love being able to possess firearms. However, I feel that it is in the best interest of our citizens for there to be at least SOME restrictions.
Jim Lyding wrote:*I threw away my lifetime NRA membership years ago when it became obvious to me that many of their stances are contrary to the public good. The NRA views any and all restrictions on firearm ownership (i.e. anything less than a howitzer) as the first step towards banning all firearms. This is the same as arguing that speed limits are the first step towards the banning of automobiles.
I stopped paying for mine because they are mainly a gutless freak show, save for a few good (GREAT) apples such as our own Buz Mills and the classic Ted Nugent. The NRA has fallen victim to DC politics to a great extent. Instead, my money goes to the Arizona Citizen's Defense League (azcdl.org.) Believe it or not, the NRA had virtually NOTHING to do with any of the laws that have passed in the last year in AZ, and the AZCDL had *EVERYTHING* to do with them.

Thanks to them, in the last year or two alone, we have

* lost the restrictions on self-defense simply because a restaurant sells alcohol Of course every bar/restaurant I've patronized since then has a "No Firearms Allowed" sign on the front door
* clarified what an 'official' sign should be and where it should be located to be seen to allow business serving alcohol to ban firearms on their property)
* Regained the right to store our own firearms in our own vehicles while on private property (ie, at work) which also kinda restored our right to self defense during commutes
* enacted defensive display laws so that actually firing isn' the FIRST legal resort anymore
* Finally made a person innocent until proven guilty in a self-defense shooting incident (a la Harold Fish)
* Told the Fed to shove it when it comes to firearm regulation when the interstate commerce clause doesn't grant them authority
* strengthened state preemption and parks-carry
* explicitly banned any form of gun registration by the state/local government
* removed the government permission slip to be able to wear a jacket while carrying a gun (the law that is the main subject of this thread)

And a heck of a lot more. So yeah, I agree, the NRA is pretty useless, especially compared to the local forces at work who actually care about our rights =)
allanalxndr wrote:I plan on renewing mine and obtain the UT or FL permit for the states that have dropped or will drop AZ because of our new laws.
I can't imagine any actual reason for states to drop reciprocity with AZ over this new law since it doesn't change the CCW permit , save for adding more options for training for the permit. Of course, I understand that the reason Nevada doesn't recognize our permit is simply because we don't have a photo on it. Heh, gotta love it =)

For the record, based on CURRENT reciprocity data, getting the Utah permit would only add Washington and Minnesota, while the Florida permit would add in Washington as well. (my source http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry ... _maps.html)

Just something to keep in mind when it comes to paying for those other permits and any requirements they may have.

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base871
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by base871 » May 20 2010 3:10 pm

I dont think any states will drop Az based on the new law. Remember, if you dont have an arizona CCW you cant carry there!
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PaleoRob
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by PaleoRob » May 20 2010 3:11 pm

You're missing my point. Don't you think that we would reduce gun-driven crime if every gun purchased had to be registered? I.e. getting rid of the loopholes that allow people like Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris from buying guns at gunshows w/out registering them?
How would you go about registering the firearm at a gunshow? Would anyone who sold a gun have to be able to run background checks then? That would make anyone selling a gun a FFL - and you end up with a situation like California's.
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chumley
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by chumley » May 20 2010 3:22 pm

It's not about going after law-abiding citizens (because law-abiding citizens in more enlightened states have to register their firearms), but rather a tool to take down criminals.
Do you have any data on the "more-enlightened" states regarding the rates of gun crimes and/or percent of criminals they take down versus the "un-enlightened" states?
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JimmyLyding
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by JimmyLyding » May 20 2010 3:42 pm

@Chumley:
Why don't you look up which states have the highest # of gun-related deaths/capita, and compare that to the states which have the least-restrictive gun laws?
Furthermore, you might be interested in checking out how the United States ranks amongst developed nations w/ respect to gun-related deaths/capita.

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chumley
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by chumley » May 20 2010 3:49 pm

I don't have the statistics, nor do I wish to take the time to look them up. However, I would be interested in knowing them, especially in light of your argument. That's why I asked you to provide them in the forum. I'm sure others would benefit as well.
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by BobP » May 20 2010 4:09 pm

Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, Mississippi and Nevada. Those are the top 5. not sure how they relate to this discussion.
Hawaii has the lowest because of all the surfer dudes :)

edit...being an accountant I know numbers can be manipulated to get the answer you want.
edit 2...the most recent figures are from 2006. over 30k killed by guns in the US.....more than half about 16k used them to kill themselves.
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by PaleoRob » May 20 2010 6:35 pm

Here's some information on registration and gun laws/crime correlation data:
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts ... screen.pdf
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base871
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by base871 » May 20 2010 8:55 pm

Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following
year.

Ya I bet! Thanks for the link Rob. Very interesting! BTW I ordered your book last week, should be here tomorrow.
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Thoreau
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Thoreau » May 20 2010 9:23 pm

Jim Lyding wrote:The Constitution was not given to us by God
I didn't say that the constitution was given by god, I said the rights were. Better yet, being an atheist, I should say they were granted us by, as the founding fathers said, "Our Creator." The constitution was simply a means to put into law restrictions on GOVERNMENT to prevent those rights from being infringed. Remember, the constitution isn't meant to give power to the government, but to RESTRICT power.

Jim Lyding wrote: You're missing my point. Don't you think that we would reduce gun-driven crime if every gun purchased had to be registered? I.e. getting rid of the loopholes that allow people like Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris from buying guns at gunshows w/out registering them?
Absolutely not. Let's use your example.

Both Klebold and Harris were under the age of 18 at the time the guns were acquired so they couldn't purchase guns with or without the so-called loophole.

The guns used in that incident were:
* 2 shotguns
* 1 Hi-Point carbine
* 1 Tec 9

The first three guns were purchased by another person who was 18. That in and of itself is illegal. The Tec 9 appears to have been sold to the shooters illegally by a dealer. I can't imagine that a dealer who is already selling to someone under 18 is going to bother filling out any 'registration' paperwork either.

You could've sealed the gunshow 'loophole' in the case of the Tec 9 and it wouldn't have made any difference since the seller obviously had no issues with bypassing the whole age-requirement issue.

Let's keep in mind that we are not dealing with law-abiding citizens here. Criminals do not go to gun stores to buy guns. They go to the shady guy on the corner, 'a guy someone knows', craigslist, backpage, etc. None of these sources would adhere to any registration laws to begin with.
Jim Lyding wrote: Because it would then be obvious to law enforcement that anyone carrying an un-registered gun is most likely someone with something to hide. Ask a law enforcement officer from the East Coast. It's not about going after law-abiding citizens (because law-abiding citizens in more enlightened states have to register their firearms), but rather a tool to take down criminals.
Aside from stopping every person they see carrying a firearm (assuming it isn't being carried concealed) how exactly would law enforcement know it isn't registered?

If the person is a criminal or intent on doing no-good with their gun, first of all, it won't be registered. Second of all, it wont be VISIBLE to a cop, let alone the casual passer by. It won't be seen until it's also being heard.
Jim Lyding wrote:Gun restrictions in other states have largely been upheld over and over. Don't get me wrong: I love being able to possess firearms. However, I feel that it is in the best interest of our citizens for there to be at least SOME restrictions.
We are simply on polar opposites on this one, so there isn't much to comment on here.

Jim Lyding wrote:Of course every bar/restaurant I've patronized since then has a "No Firearms Allowed" sign on the front door
If you truly value the 2nd amendment, you may want to consider not giving money to those would would assume you to be a criminal, require that you relinquish your ability to defend yourself, and perhaps spend your money elsewhere. http://www.thewilderness.com has a pretty comprehensive pro/anti list that they started maintaining after the restaurant law was passed. There are more than a few good guys out there happy to have legally-armed patrons.

I think the best way to sum up my viewpoint of this subject in the fewest words possible would be to simply show these two images. The first is security footage from the Columbine incident. That school is a gun-free zone. Laws do not apply to criminals, however, as can be seen here.

http://xanthotech.com/gallery/d/6491-2/gfsz.jpg

The second is this:

http://xanthotech.com/gallery/d/6494-1/comicgunfree.jpg

I wouldn't tie it in any way to 9-11 as the text on top of the toon suggest, but it otherwise gets my idea across.

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Jeffshadows » May 21 2010 8:59 am

It would take me an hour that I don't have to author a proper reply; so, here's this, instead:

1) I agree with Al on 99% of what he said. Try getting a clean shot off with a pistol in a crowded area while your adrenaline is going. It isn't as easy as the movies make it seem. Besides, the real police might show up and light you up along with the attacker out of confusion.

2) Jim is right - no one needs an RPG-7 or M2 Browning for ANYTHING. What's more, I wholeheartedly agree that the government can have sample of my prints, DNA, spent shells and rounds from every gun I own - I don't care. Why don't I care? Because I would never use any of them for anything illegal and they're not going to find my DNA at any "Crime scenes" where I was not the victim.

3) A firearm is a lethal instrument that is far easier to misuse than most of the other potentially-lethal instruments in our society (Cars, Prescription Drugs, etc.) Anyone who wishes to be in control of the aforementioned objects must bear a license to do so, already. I see absolutely no reason why we simply can't have yet another endorsement on our driver's license or a different-colored license in this state that shows that the bearer has passed a RIGOROUS training program and background investigation (NOT 'check'.) As Al said: Some of the people who pass the current CCW course are more dangerous with a gun than without. I saw it first-hand when I went to renew last time, as well. If you have this *new* license than you should be permitted to carry concealed, take the weapon into the shower with you, sing to it at night (No offense to any marines in the audience), etc.

Happy Friday to all! :y:
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by chumley » May 21 2010 9:21 am

Like most controversial issues, people have developed an opinion and they're not going to change it regardless of the arguments they hear in either direction. Just yesterday, Chicago Mayor Daley threatened to shoot a reporter (wtf?) to prove how effective the city's gun ban has been after the reporter asked why Chicago was dealing with an epidemic of gun violence despite a ban on handguns.

More telling was this response from the Mayor (emphasis mine):
"Next will be hand grenades, right? We'll say that hand grenades are OK. I mean, how far can you go in regards to mass weapons? To me, any gun taken off saves thousands of lives in America. I really believe that, I don't care what people tell me. You have to thank the police officers for seizing all these weapons. We lead the country in seizing weapons. This is unbelievable."
I think that pretty much sums it up. Climate change, guns, capitalism, nudity, Obama's birthplace, whatever. People have an opinion and they're going to stick to it regardless of what people tell them.
For full context see: http://www.chicagoreader.com/TheBlog/ar ... rnamely-me
Last edited by chumley on May 21 2010 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PaleoRob
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by PaleoRob » May 21 2010 9:26 am

jeffmacewen wrote:3) A firearm is a lethal instrument that is far easier to misuse than most of the other potentially-lethal instruments in our society (Cars, Prescription Drugs, etc.)
Yet more people misuse those licensed deadly instruments than misuse guns. Kids are more likely to bring illegal prescription drugs to school than a gun. Teenagers are far more likely to die in a car crash than any other cause. I give juvenile examples because I work at a school, but the truth is still there. Think about it. How many car accidents have you been involved in while in Arizona? Now how many times have you been shot?
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Jeffshadows » May 21 2010 9:42 am

PageRob wrote:
jeffmacewen wrote:3) A firearm is a lethal instrument that is far easier to misuse than most of the other potentially-lethal instruments in our society (Cars, Prescription Drugs, etc.)
Yet more people misuse those licensed deadly instruments than misuse guns. Kids are more likely to bring illegal prescription drugs to school than a gun. Teenagers are far more likely to die in a car crash than any other cause. I give juvenile examples because I work at a school, but the truth is still there. Think about it. How many car accidents have you been involved in while in Arizona? Now how many times have you been shot?
I'm a bad person to ask these questions of, actually. I've never been in an accident and I was shot once by some punk during a gang initiation about sixteen years back; but, I do see your point, Rob. In some ways this is actually a little comforting. To me it indicates that people respect the power of a firearm maybe a little more than we give them credit for?
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Al_HikesAZ » May 21 2010 10:29 am

jeffmacewen wrote:. . . sing to it at night (No offense to any marines in the audience). . .
The offense is that you did not capitalize the M in Marines. I expect that from POGs but you're a grunt - show some respect ;)
Everyone knows that Marines can sing, but when you crawl into the rack with your rifle, that is a special tender moment and you recite poetry to it.
"This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. . . .My rifle is human, even as I am human, because it is my life. . . ."
So Be It. There's nothing in Shakespeare as beautiful as that. So ... Good night Chesty, wherever you are. :zzz:
:)
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by PaleoRob » May 21 2010 10:46 am

jeffmacewen wrote:In some ways this is actually a little comforting. To me it indicates that people respect the power of a firearm maybe a little more than we give them credit for?
That's my opinion as well.
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Jeffshadows » May 21 2010 1:40 pm

Al_HikesAZ wrote:
jeffmacewen wrote:. . . sing to it at night (No offense to any marines in the audience). . .
The offense is that you did not capitalize the M in Marines. I expect that from POGs but you're a grunt - show some respect ;)
Everyone knows that Marines can sing, but when you crawl into the rack with your rifle, that is a special tender moment and you recite poetry to it.
"This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. . . .My rifle is human, even as I am human, because it is my life. . . ."
So Be It. There's nothing in Shakespeare as beautiful as that. So ... Good night Chesty, wherever you are. :zzz:
:)
Yes, right...I forgot. :D No one ever capitalizes Soldier, either!!
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by kevinweitzel75 » Jun 01 2010 4:21 pm

Now the next question is, when will all this take effect?
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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Thoreau » Jun 01 2010 4:43 pm

kevinweitzel75 wrote:Now the next question is, when will all this take effect?
July 29th.

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Re: New AZ CCW law

Post by Al_HikesAZ » Jun 01 2010 4:53 pm

It was Senate Bill 1108 and should take effect 90 days after the adjournment of the 2010 Legislative Regular Session (Sine Die). I think this session adjourned April 29 so 90 days after that is July 29, but you better double check on the date of adjournment. Many other laws - such as SB 1070 - will go into effect 90 days after adjournment so you should hear more about the effective date on radio & TV.
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