Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

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JimmyLyding
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Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by JimmyLyding » Jun 08 2013 7:22 pm

http://azstarnet.com/news/science/envir ... 0adb5.html

Very cool

----- links added from thread -----

Jun 7th 2013 'A taste for bighorn sheep': Mountain lions threaten wildlife project
http://www.jrn.com/kgun9/news/210658811.html

Jan 24th 2014 Game and Fish reports 3 more bighorn sheep deaths
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/2454 ... eep-deaths

Jul 18th 2014 second transplant of bighorn sheep to the Catalina Mountains this fall, but no final decision has been made
http://tucson.com/news/local/bighorns-f ... deac1.html

Nov 18th Another Reintroduced Bighorn Sheep Dies Near Tucson
http://arizonahighways.com/blog/another ... ear-tucson

Nov 19th 14 bighorns captured, set for release in Catalinas
http://tucson.com/news/local/bighorns-c ... 7c41c.html

Nov 20th They killed 3 bighorns in the relocation process! No joke.
http://tucson.com/news/local/bighorns-r ... 59a8a.html

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Tortoise_Hiker
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by Tortoise_Hiker » Jun 08 2013 8:48 pm

Well the signs are up. :D
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Jim_H
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by Jim_H » Jun 08 2013 8:50 pm

Pure coincidence that I spotted 5 bighorn sheep on the A trail this afternoon. We still have a ton of habitat around here. Not much water, though.
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azbackpackr
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by azbackpackr » Jun 09 2013 3:00 am

Saw a herd of 18 down along the Black River a couple of weeks ago. Those were Rocky Mountain bighorn instead of the desert variety.

It irritates me when people refer to them as "mountain goats." (I guess I'm easily irritated... ;) )
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by Tough_Boots » Jun 09 2013 7:38 am

azbackpackr wrote:I guess I'm easily irritated... ;)
Just imagine what its like for the rest of us! ;)
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azbackpackr
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by azbackpackr » Jun 09 2013 9:13 am

Tough_Boots wrote:
azbackpackr wrote:I guess I'm easily irritated... ;)
Just imagine what its like for the rest of us! ;)
Oh, pfffffftttt! :D
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Jeffshadows
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by Jeffshadows » Jun 10 2013 12:22 pm

Years and years ago on a Scout trip we may have seen the last of the herd that used to be up there. May these ones fare better!
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azbackpackr
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by azbackpackr » Jun 10 2013 6:54 pm

I saw a nice big ram in Pima Canyon in 1998, after they had announced all the sheep were gone. I called G&F, and the guy on the phone grilled me to make sure I knew what I was talking about. He clearly did not believe me. Oh, and Jeff, remember when Mr. B. used to always point up the side of the hill in Pima Canyon and tell about the water device, some sort of rubber bladder-type tank, that had been placed up there for the sheep? I never did see that thing.
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by outdoor_lover » Jun 20 2013 4:27 pm

And let's throw something I found of interest to not only this Thread, but also to the recent "Closure due to Lion" thread...viewtopic.php?t=7701

These Lions just can't hardly turn around anymore without doing something wrong.... ;)
http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/210658811.html
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beterarcher
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by beterarcher » Jun 20 2013 5:07 pm

Well, I guess the good thing is that there are ten times more deer to eat than Bighorns.
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by azbackpackr » Jun 20 2013 6:15 pm

Hmmm....70 lions, 100 sheep, 10,000 deer...and how many humans?

I particularly liked the alliteration employed by the journalist: "Pumas could pounce on a plan..."
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beterarcher
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by beterarcher » Jun 20 2013 6:40 pm

It's up to the humans to defend themselves. :gun:
Understand, when you eat meat, that something did die. You have an obligation to value it - not just the sirloin but also all those wonderful tough little bits.
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by outdoor_lover » Jun 20 2013 6:42 pm

Ready for a Rant??? Here it comes!!!

I doubt very seriously if past failures of the Bighorn Sheep population in that area was solely because of Lions, if they contributed at all....

Sooo, next Spring, it will be absolutely unacceptable for a female Mountain Lion trying to feed her young, to kill a Bighorn Sheep, but totally acceptable for Officials to kill the Lion and let the Cubs die out on the Range somewhere....

There is just something wrong when a Wild Animal is destroyed for preying on another Wild Animal...Seriously people??? ](*,) This just really frosts my :pk: Fair is fair in Nature, until people get involved.... : rambo :
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JimmyLyding
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by JimmyLyding » Jun 20 2013 8:18 pm

The Catalinas can either support bighorns or they can't. The introduced herd will be able to survive if suitable habitat exists (food, water, etc.), and knocking off apex predators wouldn't help them.

Think about the likely current dynamic of the lion population in the Catalinas. It doesn't look like there is much hunting pressure, if any, in the Catalinas so it's likely that big males dominate relatively large ranges. These older, larger males cause younger males who are born in their territories to disperse, and thus keeps the overall lion population stable. Knock off an established male lion or 3, and suddenly 3 established male lions turn into 5 or 6 younger toms. 5 lions eat more than 3. That's not good for lions or sheep in the long run. Alternatively, kill off all of the lions, and then the deer and sheep eat themselves out of house and home. In other words, any ecosystem that can support apex predators is relatively healthy. The ecosystems that experience a loss of apex predators suffer, and that's called a trophic cascade. Sorry, I've been reading up on trophic cascades. And mesopredator release, and all that.

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Jim_H
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by Jim_H » Jun 20 2013 8:20 pm

If it makes you feel any better, the OP article stated that habitat was restored by the fires on the Catalina Mountains 10 years ago, yet how many fires have we had since? How many would have occurred if humans had not put them out? The Gila NF put out lightning caused fire in the middle of the Gila Wilderness in June of 2010, which was after a wet winter when the fire might have been easier to steer and control. The that area had the hot Miller and Whitewater-Baldy fires in 2011 and 2012, both drought years. Seems the feds are far from consistent on managing wilderness area as such, and they still have some actions like it was 1960. At least in single species management, they can argue that they are doing what is best for the Bighorns, not the ecosystem overall or the wilderness, but I agree there is something fundamentally wrong with killing the lions.
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by outdoor_lover » Jun 20 2013 8:38 pm

Jim Lyding wrote:It doesn't look like there is much hunting pressure,
Well, at least not legal hunting pressure....http://www.kvoa.com/news/game-and-fish- ... cave-park/#_
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by azdesertfather » Jul 09 2013 8:24 am

Catalina Bighorn Advisory Committee's response to the mountain lion debate, interesting read:

Restoring bighorn sheep won't require wholesale slaughter of lions
http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/resto ... 6df81.html

They now have a website underway, too:
http://www.catalinabighornrestoration.org
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by outdoor_lover » Sep 11 2013 1:44 pm

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming, "Wow What a Ride!"

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azbackpackr
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by azbackpackr » Sep 11 2013 5:48 pm

I'm just curious, I know there are healthy herds (flocks?) elsewhere. I guess I haven't paid attention as to where they plan to get them. Anyone know?
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Re: Bighorns being released into the Catalinas

Post by red_dog » Sep 20 2013 6:53 am

azbackpackr wrote: I guess I haven't paid attention as to where they plan to get them. Anyone know?
Yuma

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