FS to remove Salt River wild horses

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cactuscat
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FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by cactuscat » Aug 03 2015 5:46 pm

11781822_10207318186330228_3369447977818798183_n.jpg
Possibly as early as Friday.
There are petitions on Facebook, and people are contacting the media ... lets keep these beautiful creatures wild and free!
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chumley
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by chumley » Aug 03 2015 6:14 pm

I see it has a name, which must put it in the same humanized category as Cecil the lion. :STP:

But quite honestly, I know absolutely zero about the issues surrounding feral horses.

Why is the FS removing them? Are they a safety/health hazard? Do they pose a problem with grazing or other environmental issues?

Is it just that the FS doesn't get any $ from a ranch for them since they are feral?

Are wild horses native? (What constitutes native? I mean aren't all horses in North America introduced by Europeans?)

I honestly don't know anything about this issue and would be glad to learn about it. Pros and Cons.

I understand the "it would be sad to see them go" part covered already. So far that's all I know though.
Last edited by chumley on Aug 03 2015 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MtnBart01
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by MtnBart01 » Aug 03 2015 6:40 pm

LET IT SNOW! Let it SNOW! Let it Snow!

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cactuscat
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by cactuscat » Aug 03 2015 6:41 pm

Here is the Forest Service notice - if you can see a reason for the removal, please tell me ...
Ad Text
Tonto National Forest- Federal
July 31, 2015
PUBLIC NOTICE NOTICE OF UNAUTHORIZED LIVESTOCK AND INTENT TO IMPOUND (Reference FSM 5330) Notice is hereby given that pursuant to Regulation of the Secretary of Agriculture, 36 CFR 262.10, all unauthorized livestock found upon National Forest System lands or other lands under Forest Service control within the area identified below, will be impounded by the United States Forest Service on or after 8/07/15. All persons not wanting their unauthorized livestock gathered must remove them from the impoundment area before the gathering occurs. TOPOGRAPHIC UNIT, LEGAL SUBDIVISION OR ALLOTMENT National Forest System Lands within the boundaries of the Mesa Ranger District, Tonto National Forest, located within all or portions of the following Townships and ranges. Townships 2-4 North, Range 7-8 East, NATIONAL FOREST OR GRASSLAND Tonto National Forest RANGER DISTRICT Mesa Ranger District STATE Arizona The livestock are described as follows: Any unauthorized horses. May be impounded by the United States Forest Service on or after 8/07/2015, unless said livestock is permanently removed from the above described lands. Any unbranded livestock, or any livestock bearing brands of previously unauthorized livestock which are found to be making continuing or subsequent unauthorized use within twelve months after publication of this notice may be impounded without further notice. After the impoundment, owners of unauthorized livestock may regain possession thereof only by first showing proof of ownership and reimbursing the United States in full for the expense incurred in impounding, feeding, and care of such livestock, or if impoundment costs exceed fair market value, by a payment equal to the fair market value of the impounded livestock. All impounded animals not redeemed within 5 days after notice of sale of impounded livestock has been published in a local newspaper, posted in the county court house and in one or more local post offices, will be offered for sale at public auction. Livestock not sold at public sale may be sold at private sale or condemned and destroyed, or otherwise disposed of as provided by Regulation 36 CFR 262.10(f). Signed at; Phoenix, AZ this 24th day of July, 2015. /s/ Neil Bosworth, Forest Supervisor 7/31, 2015 edition Arizona Capitol Times
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chumley
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by chumley » Aug 03 2015 6:58 pm

cactuscat wrote:Notice is hereby given that pursuant to Regulation of the Secretary of Agriculture, 36 CFR 262.10, all unauthorized livestock found upon National Forest System lands or other lands under Forest Service control within the area identified below, will be impounded by the United States Forest Service on or after 8/07/15.
Looks like there's a specific law that is being enforced.
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Sredfield
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Sredfield » Aug 03 2015 7:22 pm

No simple solutions, stock is in trespass, no real owners but a huge vocal constituency of "unofficial" owners. And it all makes great TV! FS sure poked a hornets' nest with this, I have to believe they thought it through before simply announcing that they would gather them up next week. Maybe they figured there was no way past the uproar but through it. They could have softened it a little by asking for input, giving public notice long in advance, seeking real solutions like some sort of authorization, adoption, sterilization, etc. Maybe they saw how the soft approach worked for BLM in the Bundy situation and figured they'd try the hard fist approach. Not so sure I'd bet much on a positive outcome for the FS tho, the horse people are a big bunch in AZ.
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Jim_H
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Jim_H » Aug 03 2015 7:38 pm

People like them because they're horses, which are basically pets, and they might like that the horses might be like the ones eating nuts from your hand: http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=513881

I remember hearing a girl or woman say she liked the tame burrows far more than the mean buffalo, back in 2000 in Wind Cave NP in South Dakota, because the burrows let her feed and pet them. Maybe that was Custer SP. Every horse takes away food for both livestock, but also the wildlife. Horses need better fodder, too. Cows, and the native grazers with multiple stomachs, do not.

The Feds don't want them because they are an exotic species with out predator control and probably without human management and if anything like the ones around Kayenta, they'll graze down everything and compete with the desirable stock, and also can end up rather sickly looking. They could harvest from time to time to keep the numbers the down, but I expect they want them gone. Like Salt Cedar, they're not without their pluses, but they just don't belong there.

Native North American horses went extinct, probably from humans, at the end of the Pleistocene with nearly all of the other mega fauna. The Sonora desert of today didn't evolve with the exotic domestic horse. Sure, there are tons of other things altered from 1492 in the west, and why pick this one? I don't know, but there is probably other information around if you wanted a greater expansion of their rational.
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Farwalker
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Farwalker » Aug 03 2015 7:52 pm

Im new here. But I trained and rode competitively for 47 years and have done feral horse photography in the Apache Sitgreaves. These horses are not native or natural but feral. Most come from broken down fenced areas near reservations or are horses set loose during the economic hard times. Their numbers can increase very quickly and in most cases herds suffer starvation and disease especially in Arizona due to limited graze lands and damage many miles of fences searching for more food and water. They pose a great strain on our forest resources unfortunately. Hence the USFS action to remove them. Not all "horse people" approve of feral horses in our forests. I rode a lot of the rim country in the 1980's, and had feral stallions try to steal my good work horses every night I camped on the 300 road. Those horses were remnants of horses that were used to make fish feed for trout farms in the previous decades, and they ran from below Flagstaff to ShowLow and down through broken fences on and off the White Mountain Apache Reservation. They were a pain. I no sooner would cross into another section with cattle guards and another herd stallion would show up in the night trying to break my horses picket ropes. Ugh.
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chumley
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by chumley » Aug 03 2015 9:16 pm

Farwalker wrote:Im new here.
:welcome:

Thanks for your insight. I think we all agree that horses are beautiful animals and it's nice to see them as we hike or float along the Salt River. But there is obviously something driving the FS to want to remove them. It's interesting to know that there are "horse people" who don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing to round them up. :-k
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Sredfield
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Sredfield » Aug 03 2015 9:42 pm

The petition drive would have a bit more credibility if they knew that the Tonto National Forest is not part of the US National Park Service.

Also, I don't understand the significance of the Granite Mountain Hotshot leader's widow, why is that tragic matter pertinent to the issues here?
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cactuscat
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by cactuscat » Aug 03 2015 9:44 pm

Wow.
I am not ashamed to say that I don't really give a damn about all the rules and rational - I am ruled more by my heart.
Couple of random thoughts:
This group of horses has been living in this lush area around the Salt River for decades - they have always seemed very healthy and happy, and there certainly is no shortage of food or water for them there.
How can a wild born animal - whether it fits anyone's definition of "native" or not - be considered "unauthorized livestock"? It's a wild freakin' animal!
And for the record, I am not a "horse person" at all - never ridden one in my life - but seeing the wild horses was always a thrill, and I don't want them rounded up and shipped off to god knows what fate.
The cold discussion here has made me wish I hadn't posted anything - I will go back to the soft-hearted horse supporters on FB. :)
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by JoelHazelton » Aug 03 2015 9:50 pm

@Sredfield
Pathos?
Last edited by JoelHazelton on Aug 03 2015 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by JasonCleghorn » Aug 03 2015 9:51 pm

I was OK until I saw that euthanization was potentially in the cards... Why can't we just leave nature alone? Stop interfering with everything and just be... I'm with you cactuscat!
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chumley
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by chumley » Aug 03 2015 10:02 pm

cactuscat wrote:I don't really give a damn about all the rules and rational - I am ruled more by my heart.
Don't you actually work in some kind of law enforcement position?
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Tough_Boots » Aug 03 2015 11:08 pm

feral horses = good
feral cats = bad

can we make some sort of list so that me and Alston can keep this stuff straight? :doh:
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by azbackpackr » Aug 04 2015 4:07 am

I liked what Farwalker said. If you read it carefully you can see what the problems are caused by this most definitely non-native species. Don't you like bighorn sheep, deer, or other wild animals? Feral horses compete for scarce resources. They also cause erosion on fragile stream banks.

In Nevada feral horses are rounded up from time to time and people adopt them. My son acquired a Nevada feral horse (from its previous owner) when we lived in the White Mountains. It was a really good horse for him. Trainable, smart, friendly--just a really cool animal. Maybe there is no need to euthanize--they could be adopted.
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gummo
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by gummo » Aug 04 2015 10:50 am

Tough_Boots wrote:feral horses = good
feral cats = bad
feral horse = bad (see azbackpackr's post)

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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Tough_Boots » Aug 04 2015 12:52 pm

@gummo

either you have missed my sarcasm or I have missed yours :D
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Kel1969
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Kel1969 » Aug 04 2015 3:13 pm

The Forest Service asserts safety is the driving reason for the roundup.
“It’s just a matter of time before one of these animals goes through a windshield and kills a family or a small child will be trampled or kicked"

By the same idiotic logic FS should remove all elks, deer......and why stop there, let's completely strip AZ from any wild life

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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by azbackpackr » Aug 04 2015 3:15 pm

Safety should not be on the top of the list. These animals can be an ecological disaster. Let's call for a humane capturing and finding homes for them. I don't think, as with feral cats. they can all be captured and neutered, so they can't reproduce any more--that would probably cost way too much money.
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