FS to remove Salt River wild horses

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cactuscat
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FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by cactuscat » Aug 03 2015 5:46 pm

11781822_10207318186330228_3369447977818798183_n.jpg
Possibly as early as Friday.
There are petitions on Facebook, and people are contacting the media ... lets keep these beautiful creatures wild and free!
Where is the "dislike" button?

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Kel1969
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Kel1969 » Aug 04 2015 3:38 pm

@azbackpackr
Have you seen any studies done showing negative impact of this herd to native species? I tried to find one without any success. FS does not state it as reason either.

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ASUAviator
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by ASUAviator » Aug 04 2015 4:46 pm

The Salt River Horse's are a small part of a much bigger story. I first learned about it years ago while fishing with my uncle at lake pleasant. No matter which cove you spend a couple hours in, you are sure to hear the grin inducing noise a burrow makes. He explained that they were introduced through the the hey-day era of mining activity in the area and southern Bradshaws. Nowadays they primarily live around the lake and the herd has generally done well. They are not an elusive animal and signs of their presence are obvious. The argument always was they have an effect on local wildlife(deer) and the 'sensitive' desert landscape. While this is true, I don't think it would take a scientific study to find humans most responsible for 'destruction' of the area...

The same is true for the horse's along the Salt and Verde. They and many other herds of wild livestock have established themselves to localized habitats around the state. One time I was driving up cave creek rd past 7 springs when I ran across a parked Department of Agriculture truck. 100 yards off the road was a pen with 1 way access and hay in the center. I asked him about it and he said that over the years cattle have gone astray and began living independently out there. Since it too is National Forest land there was a joint agency effort to eradicate them. I dont know how successful they were but the point being this sort of thing has been going on for a while.

The difference is people know of this herd and I think you'd hear the same outcry if efforts were made to round up the Pleasant burrow's. Both groups live in places popular for recreation. In my opinion, the fact that people trash these 2 places more then the animals were talking about makes me feel content with their existence there. Its the herds people dont know about in more remote areas that id like to see done away with. I think they pose a greater overall threat to the fauna and landscape.

I would like to know how many people who support keeping the 'wild' horse's around are also advocates of free flowing rivers and dam demolitions?? It would be quite the hypocritical analysis. Truth is, they are not native fauna.

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gummo
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by gummo » Aug 04 2015 6:58 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:@gummo

either you have missed my sarcasm or I have missed yours :D
I missed your sarcasm. My fault. Sorry about that.

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Jim_H
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Jim_H » Aug 04 2015 8:39 pm

cactuscat wrote:Wow.
I am not ashamed to say that I don't really give a damn about all the rules and rational - I am ruled more by my heart.
Couple of random thoughts:
This group of horses has been living in this lush area around the Salt River for decades - they have always seemed very healthy and happy, and there certainly is no shortage of food or water for them there.
How can a wild born animal - whether it fits anyone's definition of "native" or not - be considered "unauthorized livestock"? It's a wild freakin' animal!
And for the record, I am not a "horse person" at all - never ridden one in my life - but seeing the wild horses was always a thrill, and I don't want them rounded up and shipped off to god knows what fate.
The cold discussion here has made me wish I hadn't posted anything - I will go back to the soft-hearted horse supporters on FB. :)
There may be adequate resources for these animals, but they are displacing something else, or are competing with a true native. These are considered unauthorized livestock becuase they are a domestic species, found nowhere in nature in North America unless introduced by humans in some fashion, and because all one needs to do to make them tame livestock is adopt and break them. You can't do that with bison, bighorn sheep, and so on. These may be wild animals today, but they were not always, and there is a good chance that they are not completely wild. An analog would be a pack of escaped wild dogs, roaming free, harassing wildlife and people's pets. Would those favoring the horses share an enthusiasm for something like that? If you only want emotional responses, well.... see my Subaru posts!
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gummo
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by gummo » Aug 04 2015 9:05 pm

Here's a good video on why we need to stop these crazy horses from running everywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMM3MgS4yxc

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Dave1
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Dave1 » Aug 04 2015 10:34 pm

It looks like the Forest Service may be getting ready to open that area up to cattle grazing:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=45768

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chumley
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by chumley » Aug 04 2015 11:29 pm

Dave1 wrote:It looks like the Forest Service may be getting ready to open that area up to cattle grazing:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=45768
I saw that earlier today. Reading the final report, it doesn't seem to be a major issue as the horses are generally found on a portion of the forest that is no longer open to grazing. The area being proposed for grazing is not where the horses generally reside. I have not seen any text in the reports that indicates that the horses should be removed or that their existence is in conflict with the reintroduction of grazing in the area discussed in this project.
Range records indicate that there has been a population of trespass feral horses along the Lower Salt River (river), southwest of the allotment, since the 1930s. These horses presumably originated from the neighboring Ft. McDowell Indian Reservation and/or Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian Community, both of which border the Mesa Ranger District to the west/northwest. Although the horses are typically found along the river, within the boundary of the retired Goldfield Allotment, on occasion, they are observed east of the Bush Highway within the southernmost portion of the Desert Unit.
* Desert Unit = area of proposed grazing reintroduction
* Goldfield Allotment = area where grazing has been retired. Also where feral horses are found.
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ssk44
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by ssk44 » Aug 05 2015 4:02 pm

The Forest Service tried to do this two years ago. The public outcry was too strong. It's the same scenario now. For the record I love these horses. I've spent a considerable amount of time hanging out with at least two different bands. Lets just say that I've gotten to know them. They truly do captivate the human heart. I really don't know what the answer is. The FS is using the public safety angle as a way to get the uninformed general public behind them. Basically the people that have never been out there. The horses are not sick, there not starving, and there not dying of thirst as some want the public to believe. The horses just mind there own business. There not violent horses that go around attacking people for the hell of it. I can say from person experience that it is a bit dangerous when competing bands get into there pissing matches. There gang fights are very violent. They all just start running around while the stallions violently fight it out. You don't want to be between them. I've experienced this first hand so I know how it goes down. I just stayed out of there way and let them work it out. Young children could easily get run down.

The main problem out there is that there's just simple too many of them. There becoming very tolerant of people and they hang out in the managed recreation facilities. They crap all over the place and tear up the desert in the areas that they heavily frequent. I've seen the damage. It's a mess out there. The risk to drivers along the highway has also increased within the last year. They cross the highway and cars crash in to them. Hitting a horse at 45 mph is not good. There's just simply too many of them. Predator control doesn't seem to be enough. I had always hoped that the coyotes and mountain lions would keep things in balance naturally. It doesn't seem to be working. I don't know what the answer is but something must be done. Time will tell how its handled. It saddens me, but its just gotten out of control.
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Jim_H
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Jim_H » Aug 05 2015 5:06 pm

ssk44 wrote:The Forest Service tried to do this two years ago. The public outcry was too strong. It's the same scenario now. For the record I love these horses. I've spent a considerable amount of time hanging out with at least two different bands. Lets just say that I've gotten to know them. They truly do captivate the human heart. I really don't know what the answer is. The FS is using the public safety angle as a way to get the uninformed general public behind them. Basically the people that have never been out there. The horses are not sick, there not starving, and there not dying of thirst as some want the public to believe. The horses just mind there own business. There not violent horses that go around attacking people for the hell of it. I can say from person experience that it is a bit dangerous when competing bands get into there pissing matches. There gang fights are very violent. They all just start running around while the stallions violently fight it out. You don't want to be between them. I've experienced this first hand so I know how it goes down. I just stayed out of there way and let them work it out. Young children could easily get run down.

The main problem out there is that there's just simple too many of them. There becoming very tolerant of people and they hang out in the managed recreation facilities. They crap all over the place and tear up the desert in the areas that they heavily frequent. I've seen the damage. It's a mess out there. The risk to drivers along the highway has also increased within the last year. They cross the highway and cars crash in to them. Hitting a horse at 45 mph is not good. There's just simply too many of them. Predator control doesn't seem to be enough. I had always hoped that the coyotes and mountain lions would keep things in balance naturally. It doesn't seem to be working. I don't know what the answer is but something must be done. Time will tell how its handled. It saddens me, but its just gotten out of control.
Sorry for the bolding and editing, but I wanted to highlight your own points that actually support the USFS decision to remove the horse.

So, really, there is a public safety concern, from not just piles of feces from these animals, but also vehicle collisions which are increasing, and they interact with people as they have no natural (possibly due to former domestication) fear of humans, and therefore are in close proximity to them when they both cross roads, and have territorial battles between stallions. Seems like a very legitimate reason for the Forest Service to remove them. If anything, this should have been done a while ago.

Makes me think that they really do need to be removed. I was neutral as this would never affect me, but it seems like they need eradication. Also, it confirmed by belief that people, ignorant of the details due to never being out and seeing what the horses do, and/ or not being qualified to determine the effects, are using an emotional barometer to defend the horses when they really shouldn't have much say. That is just me, though.
Last edited by Jim_H on Aug 05 2015 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sredfield
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Sredfield » Aug 05 2015 5:13 pm

The McCain/Flake letter mentions some solutions. I wonder if the horse constituents would accept a population limit, with the excess being "disposed of" as suggested in the FS notice. With no natural predators, the herd will continue to expand. A BLM manager told me some pretty horrific stories about horses starving to death because there were simply too many of them.

Also, is there sufficient support to fund a solution-long term? Nothing but the status quo will be free.
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Alston_Neal » Aug 05 2015 5:16 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:feral horses = good, feral cats = bad, can we make some sort of list so that me and Alston can keep this stuff straight?
Bwahahahahahaaaa I love this.
I just saw this post cuz I was staying away from this topic. FB is so bs on this and here it is a rational conversation.
I'm glad I opened to this thread, some very good points being brought out.
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big_load
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by big_load » Aug 05 2015 5:20 pm

The topic is now getting national exposure. Under "Top Stories" on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/05/us/wild-h ... index.html

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big_load
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by big_load » Aug 05 2015 5:23 pm

Maybe the USFS will start a program to swap extra horses for unloved Subarus.

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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Jim_H » Aug 05 2015 5:26 pm

@big_load
I don't know how horse tastes, is it good?
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Alston_Neal » Aug 05 2015 5:26 pm

I blame this commercial for the public distortion of talking horses by water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omNifHK_kXM
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Alston_Neal
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Alston_Neal » Aug 05 2015 5:28 pm

Jim_H wrote:I don't know how horse tastes, is it good?
I had horse sashimi in Japan, tastes a whole lot better than whale.
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ssk44
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by ssk44 » Aug 05 2015 5:54 pm

Jim_H wrote:I was neutral as this would never affect me, but it seems like they need eradication.
Any chance you could be out there during the roundup? :whistle:
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Jim_H
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Jim_H » Aug 05 2015 5:57 pm

ssk44 wrote:
Jim_H wrote:I was neutral as this would never affect me, but it seems like they need eradication.
Any chance you could be out there during the roundup? :whistle:
How do you mean?
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by chumley » Aug 05 2015 5:59 pm

@Alston Neal I've only had horse that one time I was a guest for a nice dinner at Bushwood Country Club. One of the other guests in a garish red plaid jacket made a big stink about how bad it was!

But I found whale to be quite delicious.
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Re: FS to remove Salt River wild horses

Post by Alston_Neal » Aug 05 2015 6:18 pm

chumley wrote:But I found whale to be quite delicious.
That's the problem with the Japanese. If you can't eat it raw it's sacrilege, well my whale tasted like ....lets go to the store buy a package of bacon and open it, then eat a slice. Heating meat is not evil. Dang good horse though.
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