Trail Etiquette question

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DarthStiller
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Trail Etiquette question

Post by DarthStiller » Oct 22 2007 11:15 am

Does anyone know if the trails in the Hawes Pass area are specifically for bikers? I had an unfortunate run in at the start with a rather ignorant and rude mountain biker. We had been hiking about 10 min. when this biker was coming in the opposite direction. We both were approaching a bend in the trail and he start to speed up to get around it before I did and made no effort whatsoever to yield the trail. On top of that, he was yelling something at me as he passed by and brushed me. Once he passed us, he stopped and said that the trails there are mainly for bikers and that I was supposed to yield the trail. I said , “Bikers yield to hikers”. He repeated that the trails were mainly for bikers and that I needed to learn the rules. I have never heard of any trails where hikers are supposed to yield to bikers. Especially ones maintained by the National Forest Service, as this was in the Tonto. I have seen on maps for county parks tracks that are dedicated exclusively for bikers, but no hikers are allowed on those at all. I found it really unbelievable that this guy would take the stance that the rules were the opposite of what is known as common trail etiquette, not to mention how he attempted to bump me off the trail while carrying a full pack.

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DarthStiller
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by DarthStiller » Oct 22 2007 9:36 pm

The Phx Mt. preserve is the worst for bikers. I was there last august hiking with some former co-workers who were training for a rim to rim GC hike and we ran into a few of the typical hyper-aggressive fast bikers in their 20's. we also did see a few decent ones, but the idiots always stand out in your mind. one guy was really flying and the guy in front just said "slow down, there's more people behind me" since the guy was flying over the crest of a hill and the biker replied with a few choice expletives. I seriously considered the "well-placement" of my hiking pole at that point, but decided against it.

the other thing about the whole Phx Mt. Preserve is how the whole area is scarred by the new "trails" created by these idiots. I noticed some of these beginning to form at Hawes Pass, which is for now still a nice area. I hope it doesnt turn into the way the Phx Mt. preserve is. I really should give the local ranger station a call.....

my understanding is that bikers yield to hikers, all yield to horses. I think that's because the horses can get spooked, dont know any better or understand the concept of etiquette, etc. I always get out of the way very early when I see a horse coming.

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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by joebartels » Oct 22 2007 9:54 pm

Everybody yields to the idiot, just like driving.

Stiller, I think it would have been hilarious if you showed that guy your Beartooth Map :sl:

Can't vouch for mountain bikers but I've seen an elk and now a horse go down in te-wa's path :sl:
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by DarthStiller » Oct 22 2007 10:35 pm

It was kind of funny because a few minutes after it happened I asked my friend who was hiking with me about and he said the guy was FOS. so I checked the map, found the yellow symbol, and a whole section on trail etiquette, rude mountain bikers, etc. At that point I wished I had remembered that was all on there when it happened, I would have offered to show it to him. I was ready to show it to him if we saw him again, but we didn't. I was just as happy to not see him again rather than get any further into it. I'm not out there to police everyone, I just want to get some exercise and enjoy the outdoors.

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chumley
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by chumley » Oct 22 2007 11:28 pm

This doesn't address the Hawes trail, but regarding the Phoenix Mtns: from ( dead link removed )

Trail Etiquette
* Phoenix mountain preserves are open, undeveloped desert areas. Hikers can encounter rocky terrain, rattlesnakes and other potential hazards native to the Sonoran Desert. Observing trail etiquette will help to ensure that your preserve outing is a safe one.
* ALWAYS stay on a designated trail. Phoenix city ordinances prohibit trailblazing
* Learn to share the trails with all other users.
* In general, bike riders yield to both hikers and horseback riders; hikers yield to horseback riders. However, for all trail users, downhill yields to uphill. Use common sense and courtesy while on the trails.
* Announce your intentions and slow your pace when passing someone on the trails. Do not litter.
* Destruction or removal of plants, animals, historical, prehistoric or geological sites are prohibited.
* Do not chase or harass wildlife.
* Avoid putting your hands and feet anywhere you cannot see.
* Remember the 3 C’s: Courtesy, Communication and Common Sense.

With this in mind, I add that on well-used trails, as a hiker I tend to yield to bikers because I find that it is often easier and less damaging for me to make a couple of steps to the side of the trail than it is for a bike to ride around me. A biker's speed also sometimes makes it more likely that he comes upon a hiker too quickly. The sound while riding a bike often obscures the sound of an oncoming hiker (and rattlesnakes), whereas a hiker can usually hear a biker coming and therefore be prepared to avoid him. I think this is where the 3 C's come in.

Of course, it's situations like these that prompt me to seek lightly traveled trails. Whether I'm biking or hiking, a day where I see nobody else is perfect! When I want to see the sights of a popular trail, I prefer to go on weekdays or during the "off-season". If hiking and running into lots of people was what I wanted, I could do laps around the mall. :doh:
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by nonot » Oct 22 2007 11:40 pm

Everybody yields to horses and mules, bikers yield to hikers.

Oh, but everyone yields to te-wa, I can second the elk and horse observations :?
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by fairweather8588 » Oct 23 2007 12:08 am

mike would only yield if he came across the coors light twins on the trail (he'd probably follow/stalk them too)

However in my experiences the bikers always slow down to a near stop, but ill always move out of the way simply because its easier in my opinion. but then again i've yet to cross the path of any of these renegade bikers, in which case i wouldnt hesitate to introduce my fist to his jaw (maybe a clothesline would be more appropriate?) : rambo :
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by hikeaz » Oct 23 2007 6:43 am

JamesLyding wrote:................................................. It was a very windy day so hearing trail noise was difficult, and some clown on a mountain bike came roaring around a corner and down through a dip. He almost hit me and my dog, and I yelled "watch it!" He didn't like it, and came back to me. He replied "what the ---- are you doing??? Watch where you're going!!!" I replied (angrily) that he needed to learn the rules of the _______ trail, and grow up. He didn't like that, but he liked it even less when I told him we could go call the city parks department for a clarification. He was a foul-mouthed moron, and even more so when I pointed out that it was illegal to ride w/out a helmet. What a moron. This clown had all of the requisite gear: $2K bike, cycling clothes...but no helmet. ......................
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by big_load » Oct 23 2007 9:18 am

matt gilbert wrote:...Horses I'm not so sure about. I think that horses (like bikers) should yeild to hikers. I base this on the theory that he who works the hardest has the right of way.
The deal with horses is that they can't be trusted to maintain their composure, especially around backpacks.

I have occassional bike encounters. Often the biker is going so fast that he barely has time to react to an unexpected obstacle, especially if his eyes are glued to the ground. I always keep an ear open in bike territory and operate on the assumption that I won't be seen in time to avoid a collision.

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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by Hoffmaster » Oct 23 2007 4:55 pm

te-wa,

Are you trying to step on my toes? :? Your new signature sucks! Every user group has a few bad apples. Don't be a knob! [-X

P.S. I got a bunch of mtn bike stickers you can have. You can put them all over your Aquafina bottles. :D I'll bring them for you when we do the Supes trip!
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te_wa
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by te_wa » Oct 23 2007 5:48 pm

hey I didnt make fun of climbers, just giving you a hard time, besides youre a wannabe mtn biker anyway right? :sl:
:D

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djui5
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by djui5 » Oct 23 2007 9:18 pm

Thanks for answering my question :)

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Hoffmaster
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by Hoffmaster » Oct 23 2007 10:57 pm

te-wa wrote:hey I didnt make fun of climbers, just giving you a hard time, besides youre a wannabe mtn biker anyway right? :sl:
I don't know about "wannabe." I can bring it on a bike like a champion. I can also crash on a bike like a champion. Wannabes don't crash because they avoid taking risks. I would say that mtn biking ranks #3 after hiking and climbing, so I guess you got me there.

The new signature is awesome! I'm surprised it took you so long to put that very true FACT up as your signature. Very. Surprised. Indeed. :D
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by Kachina » Jan 04 2008 9:48 pm

I realize I'll probably catch the wrath of mountain bikers everywhere, but I really believe there should be no such thing as "multi use trails". I have one more consideration - I hike with my dog and if a bike is going fast, she really gets freaked out by it. Contrary to conventional wisdom, no matter what way I'm going, I ALWAYS yield to the biker - simply cuz I have to get my dog 10 feet away from the bike or she'll bark her fool head off and scare the crap out of the guy.

Plus, you have to consider most of these guys are all about the speed... the faster the better. And they don't want to stop or slow down for anyone. I just think it's too dangerous for mountain bikers and hikers to share the same trail.

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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by azbackpackr » Jan 06 2008 9:14 am

Ahhhh, now's when I get to brag. I have mtn. biked, cross country skied, snowshoed, horsebacked, hiked and walked my dogs--all on the same trail (at different times of course!) and never saw another soul 98% of the time.

Living in the city just sucks big. So glad I chose to leave it. You guys can all stay there and fight it out if you want to.
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by JimmyA » Jan 14 2008 12:05 am

I realize I'll probably catch the wrath of mountain bikers everywhere, but I really believe there should be no such thing as "multi use trails". I have one more consideration - I hike with my dog and if a bike is going fast, she really gets freaked out by it. Contrary to conventional wisdom, no matter what way I'm going, I ALWAYS yield to the biker - simply cuz I have to get my dog 10 feet away from the bike or she'll bark her fool head off and scare the crap out of the guy.
I've read enough of the "I am a hiker, therefore I am entitled" mentality, and now I am compelled to respond. Your comment about not believing in "multi-use trails" reminds me of a tongue-in-cheek comment by Phil Mickelson once when asked whether or not he liked the idea of the USGA enforcing a "standard" ball. His response was, "yeah, as long as they select the ball I play". We could all take the same position, I suppose. I rarely hike, and I mountain bike about 4 or 5 times per week. I wouldn't mind doing away with "multi-use trails" either, so long as the majority banned HIKING and not biking (I don't really mean that, but I am saying it to make a point). Now on to your comments about your dog. My first question would have to be, "is your dog on a leash?" If I am riding down the mountain, and your dog is off the leash, only one of us is breaking the law, and it isn't me. I see hikers walking their dogs all the time and, quite frankly, I would go as far as to say that, estimating very moderately, 25% of the time their dogs are not on leashes. I'm not sure if they are aware of this or not, but there is a fairly steep fine for letting your dog run around the trails unleashed. Now, if your dog is so out of control that she needs to be contained every time a biker rides by, whether on a leash or not, perhaps she would be better served taking walks around the neighborhood and not on trails where you KNOW people are mountain biking. Taking a dog out there that can't co-exist with other trail users is acting just as irresponsibly as the mountain biker who speeds down the mountain, taking no one else into consideration. Just as the mountain biker thinks HIS agenda (riding his bike the way he wants) trumps all, you may be thinking that YOUR agenda (walking your dog on public trails) trumps everyone else. You both would be sadly incorrect. Enjoy yourself on the trails to the point that you aren't keeping others from enjoying themselves as well. If everyone took that position, there wouldn't be much to bicker about.
Plus, you have to consider most of these guys are all about the speed... the faster the better. And they don't want to stop or slow down for anyone. I just think it's too dangerous for mountain bikers and hikers to share the same trail.
Your statement applies to "MOST" mountain bikers? You have no clue how wrong you are. "MOST" mountain bikers that I know are well aware of trail etiquette and will always yield to the hiker. Not to mention, we, if I may include myself when speaking about "mountain bikers", are well aware that many hikers have that sense of entitlement that I mentioned earlier (which, in my opinion, is at the very core of many of the hiker/biker issues), and would love to see us banned from the mountain. With that in mind, and believe me, it is a situation that we are all aware of, most of the mountain bikers that I know do what they can not to incite the situation. I find the arrangement irritating, at best, but I know what it is and I just try to go out there, ride my bike, and have a good time while letting everyone else on the trails do the same thing. Are there a-hole mountain bikers? Of course, but, if you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit that there are many a-hole hikers as well. Don't let a few idiots misguide you into believing that MOST mountain bikers are as you describe. You should check out some of the local mountain bike forums. I think you'd be quite surprised to see that most people there are very aware of trail etiquette and really frown upon the behavior that you attribute to "MOST" mountain bikers. You may find the occasional idiot saying something negative about hikers but, hey, I read this thread and see idiots talking about "dragging mountain bikers off their goofy bikes", and talking about how even horses should yield to hikers (quite comical there). It just proves my point that idiocy isn't an exclusive trait of the mountain bikers.

So next time you're upset that your biker-eating dog has to be contained, rather than thinking of how changing the trails (no more multi-use trails) could make the experience more enjoyable for YOU, why not think of how changing yourself could make the experience more enjoyable for everyone?

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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by PaleoRob » Jan 14 2008 7:09 am

JimmyA wrote:there are many a-hole hikers as well.
That is the truth. Just go to any of the popular Valley trails like Piestewa Peak, where you run the risk of being literally pushed off the trail by folks "training" or not wanting to have their heart rate drop below their target range for more than 1 second. Trail rage is real, I've found out.
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by Hoffmaster » Jan 14 2008 7:49 am

JimmyA! You are the man! You said exactly what I was thinking when I read Kachina's post, only I couldn't think of a nice way to respond.
I hike mostly, but I love mtn biking too. I'm all too aware of the "war" between mtn bikers and hikers. Believe me, if I'm mtn biking and I see a hiker, I'm yielding. Heck, I yield the trails to mtn bikers when I'm hiking. It only takes a second and I don't see what the big deal is.
I won't comment on the dog, other than to say I agree with what you said. I'm not a dog person.
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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by ASUTyler » Jan 15 2008 2:17 pm

Stiller wrote:I seriously considered the "well-placement" of my hiking pole at that point, but decided against it.
So you're either going to kill the guy or knock him off the bike?

One will land you in jail for a while, and the other will give some guy- who is probably used to falling anyways- a darn good reason to knock your teeth out.

And all of this over just less than 10 seconds of interaction?

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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by te_wa » Jan 15 2008 2:26 pm

If you saw the size of the man Stiller, you wouldnt think that a wimpy mountain biker is going to knock any teeth from anywhere. :sl:
:D

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Re: Trail Etiquette question

Post by ASUTyler » Jan 15 2008 2:37 pm

te-wa wrote:If you saw the size of the man Stiller, you wouldnt think that a wimpy mountain biker is going to knock any teeth from anywhere. :sl:
Until a big dude comes along...

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