leave no trace

Moderator: HAZ - Moderators

Linked Guides none
Linked Areas none
User avatar
trekkin_gecko
Posts: 534
Joined: Nov 17 2008 4:30 pm
City, State: phoenix, az

leave no trace

Post by trekkin_gecko » Jul 01 2012 1:44 pm

the latest poll question: do you seriously practice LNT ethics?

i answered no because
a. i don't pack out my waste
b. i don't pick up after other people
c. i've thrown a few apple cores in the bushes in the past

curious what others have to say
where do you draw the line?

User avatar
azfatboy
Posts: 32
Joined: Feb 11 2013 8:41 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: leave no trace

Post by azfatboy » Mar 04 2013 7:36 pm

te-wa wrote:laughable argument? laugh away.

just to clarify: deciding the best part of the package is used, so now the package is useless, and littering it, is equal. no matter what the packaging is.. either can or core. same thing.
i did not imply that the two materials are the same, or that they last the same time before degrading. simply that the package is considered useless after the usable stuffs is used.

got that?
Nope! All "packaging" most assuredly is NOT equal. And to say so simply blows right past silly into the absurd.

I would daresay that it would not be offensive or even noticeable (by us OR the environment) if EVERY person who hiked threw away an apple core--ON EVERY HIKE. Even if every core took the WHOLE TWO MONTHS to decompose *completely*, you would simply be hard pressed to ever notice. Why would I say this? Cause I'll bet that, on average, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS. And guess what? Only the most self-righteous LNTer's on the busiest trails would ever even notice that little rock-looking thing 10 feet off the trail, and wail and moan that it might've been an apple core a couple weeks ago... Now imagine if every hiker throws away a soda can or beer bottle on every trip... The trail would become ugly within weeks, and impassable within months. Umm, no--not NEARLY the same thing.

So poop made from berries and leaves and such is somehow better? By that logic, human vegetarians can poop with impunity? Hogwash. Human poop, even laced with "impurities" or whatever, is just as natural as other animal waste, and by decomposes just about the same--ever seen deer pellets from last week? Last month? Last season? I sure have. Bet my "artificially-flavored" poop, if deposited right next to it, would be gone sooner.

I am NOT, of course, advocating dumping all "biodegradable" waste in the outdoors, because it decomposes; nor pooping on the trail, just because a deer does. Just making a point. But I have a feeling I'm ](*,) here...

User avatar
cactuscat
Posts: 681
Joined: Oct 15 2002 12:08 pm
City, State: Safford

Re: leave no trace

Post by cactuscat » Mar 04 2013 8:03 pm

024.JPG
This is trash. Yes, it's organic and biodegradable ... but it's ugly and it detracts from the experience of hiking in one of the most beautiful places on Earth. Anyone who would leave such a thing in such a place is a rude tarzan swing and/or ignorant beyond belief.
Where is the "dislike" button?

User avatar
azfatboy
Posts: 32
Joined: Feb 11 2013 8:41 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: leave no trace

Post by azfatboy » Mar 04 2013 8:24 pm

cactuscat, I agree!!!

Did anything in my posts contradict that? I don't think so! When looking a the thumbnail, I was certain you were showing feces on that rock!

Hopefully we can agree that it is the placement (via laziness or ignorance) that is the most heinous aspect of this "rude pumpkin"... (he-he, I like that!!! :lol: )

And since I haven't stirred up enough controversy :scared: (and because I honestly wanna know), what is the common wisdom on why it is also verboten to eliminate small bits of trash (like a tissue I just blew my nose into) by placing in a fire? Cause I will admit that I am guilty of this too... :oops:

User avatar
gummo
Posts: 253
Joined: Oct 23 2010 10:07 am
City, State: mesa

Re: leave no trace

Post by gummo » Mar 04 2013 9:41 pm

The Hippy wrote:
... we are actually looking into the "poop tube" it seems so simple!!
What's a poop tube?

User avatar
gummo
Posts: 253
Joined: Oct 23 2010 10:07 am
City, State: mesa

Re: leave no trace

Post by gummo » Mar 04 2013 9:43 pm

gummo wrote:
The Hippy wrote:
... we are actually looking into the "poop tube" it seems so simple!!
What's a poop tube?
On second thought, scratch that. I really don't want to know.

User avatar
ASUAviator
Posts: 122
Joined: Nov 06 2010 12:12 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: leave no trace

Post by ASUAviator » Mar 04 2013 9:47 pm

I agree with fatty, placement is everything with a decomposable. Banana's being worst than most. Im guilty of throwing out apple cores, but when I do I give it thought. It goes deep in a bush, under a rock, or other place where someone would have to search to find it for the limited time it will be around. In this case, I am practicing Leave No Trace. The same object can be littered about carelessly by another. For you apple core fanatics, ever hike on a soft wet trail? You probably left a trace with your footsteps that may last longer than that core. Yeah im gettin a little carried away but get the point? The only way to not leave a trace by your definition is to not go!

When it comes to 'non-decomposibles', papers, plastics, and metals or other items that stand out, there is no 'covering' it up and no excuse for not packing it out. I always find myself picking up and packing out items like that. As for getting close to nature, bury it and the TP and call it good. Unfortunately this does not always happen.

no avatar
----
Posts: 96
Joined: Aug 11 2012 11:15 pm

Re: leave no trace

Post by ---- » Mar 04 2013 10:15 pm

Confessions of hikers, I love it :sl:

User avatar
PatrickL
Posts: 544
Joined: Jan 10 2010 4:25 pm
City, State: Buckeye, AZ

Re: leave no trace

Post by PatrickL » Mar 04 2013 10:16 pm

Bring a bag along and pack out what you bring in, biodegradable or not. It's mega easy, folks.

Instead of "leave no trace," let's try, "take only pictures, leave only footprints."

User avatar
SgtLumpy
Posts: 63
Joined: Feb 24 2013 12:25 pm
City, State: N Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: leave no trace

Post by SgtLumpy » Mar 05 2013 6:49 am

On the apple core arguments:

Do those that suggest that leaving apple cores is OK base that on some kind of belief that it's somehow GOOD for the environment? Surely with all of us fit and nature conscious hikers, dropping the core into a trash bag for carry out isn't an athletic challenge. So I'm guessing it's not difficult or hard to pack it out. So do you think that by leaving it you're doing some kind of "good"? Or is it something like "It's not too bad"?

I look at hiking areas as if they were the street in front of my house. I wouldn't want someone walking/driving by putting dog poop, cigarette butts, beer cans or apple cores on my street. I'm guessing nobody would. I can deal with the idea that the asphalt in front of my house is going to get worn and have tire tracks from passing cars. I can even deal with those fluorescent paint markings made by the blue stake people. That's equivalent to boot prints and man made trail marker signs on a trail. But once the driver of that car, or a hiker, begins dropping their trash on the road or trail, that's over the line in my personal environmental ethics.

Others may have different sets of ethics. But really...Consider asking yourself "Does this apple core do more good LEFT in the desert or packed OUT of the desert?" If you've asked yourself that question, and truly believe that it DOES do some kind of good, I'm ok with you feeling that way. We just disagree. And disagreeing is what makes puppies cute, rain smell good and other groovy aspects of humanity.

I'm guessing that apple cores are not a natural diet inclusion for any desert animal found in Arizona.


Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

User avatar
SpiderLegs
Posts: 756
Joined: Jul 12 2012 7:35 pm
City, State: Tucson, AZ

Re: leave no trace

Post by SpiderLegs » Mar 05 2013 7:32 am

All I know the most annoying thing left on trails in Arizona is the mule poop at the Grand Canyon. Especially if it is fresh, it's enough to bring tears to your eyes.
See my pics on Instagram @tucsonexplorer

User avatar
trekkin_gecko
Posts: 534
Joined: Nov 17 2008 4:30 pm
City, State: phoenix, az

Re: leave no trace

Post by trekkin_gecko » Mar 05 2013 7:54 am

i always thought that it took banana and orange peels longer to decompose than apple cores
there is a banana peel in the back of my truck
i'm going to add an apple core and some orange peels and do my own research ;)

User avatar
gummo
Posts: 253
Joined: Oct 23 2010 10:07 am
City, State: mesa

Re: leave no trace

Post by gummo » Mar 05 2013 8:22 am

trekkin gecko wrote:i always thought that it took banana and orange peels longer to decompose than apple cores
there is a banana peel in the back of my truck
i'm going to add an apple core and some orange peels and do my own research ;)
I thought orange peels took longer too, but I never test them. I only tested 2 banana peels to see how long they would last and both lasted 4 weeks (around a month), but around 3 weeks, you could barely see it. I'm always skeptical of other people's studies, especially when it involve nature.

User avatar
gummo
Posts: 253
Joined: Oct 23 2010 10:07 am
City, State: mesa

Re: leave no trace

Post by gummo » Mar 05 2013 8:31 am

SgtLumpy wrote:On the apple core arguments:
I'm guessing that apple cores are not a natural diet inclusion for any desert animal found in Arizona.
There's a lot of desert creatures that eat apples as their natural diet: deer, mice/rats, ants, millipedes (I think), black bears, skunks, javelinas*, foxes, coyotes*, ringtails*, coatis, horses, cattle, donkeys, and maybe squirrels and rabbits.

*not sure if it's natural for them but they eat apples.

User avatar
chumley
Posts: 6978
Joined: Sep 18 2002 8:59 am
City, State: Tempe, AZ

Re: leave no trace

Post by chumley » Mar 05 2013 9:06 am

So yesterday in this thread I announced that I was going to "stir the pot". Wow. Apparently it worked! It might have been missed that I have thrown plenty of apple cores and orange peels into the woods, and will very likely do so again. I don't and won't do it on trails that are heavily used. Can you imagine if just 10% of hikers threw an apple core out while hiking Camelback or Squaw or Peralta to Fremont? :yuck:

But the more I read this thread, the less I will probably do it, because I've really come to one simple realization: It's littering. Period. And upon further consideration, the primary reason I've done it is because it's a hassle to bag up sticky leftover fruit parts. It is also a hassle to bag up a beer can, but I always do that because I know it lasts forever. Because I know that the fruit skin will only last a matter of weeks is why I can justify littering. But it is still littering. I don't bring apples on hikes so I can throw apple cores in the desert for the express benefit of the environment. Do you?

Sometimes you're hiking and you have to poo. But you don't have to throw your fruit skins out.

I still believe that littering organic material is harmless and unobtrusive when it's done in a very low use area. But next time I do it, I might think of this thread and ask myself why I'm doing it. :M2C:
Profound observer

User avatar
Tough_Boots
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mar 28 2008 7:08 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: leave no trace

Post by Tough_Boots » Mar 05 2013 5:50 pm

if someone ever harasses me for chucking an apple core out into the middle of nowhere-- they will quickly be asked about the gas they used to get there, the carbon emissions they have added to that very same environment, the fluids their car is leaking in the parking lot, the very trail they are hiking on, and the disruptive effect they are having over the wildlife in the area. LNT is a good thing to keep in mind and strive for but the only true way to "leave no trace" is to not be there. We are out there disrupting nature because it is our hobby-- accept it. ;)
"there is no love where there is no bramble."
--bill callahan

User avatar
chumley
Posts: 6978
Joined: Sep 18 2002 8:59 am
City, State: Tempe, AZ

Re: leave no trace

Post by chumley » Mar 14 2013 11:15 am

I thought this discovery was fun yesterday after this recent thread.

Somebody had taken the time to "decorate" a bush with fruit peels and blackberries! And no, it was not a blackberry bush.

Odd behavior at best.

http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=322219
Profound observer

User avatar
The_Eagle
Posts: 1080
Joined: Jan 20 2009 2:46 pm
City, State: Far NE Phoenix, Az
Contact:

Re: leave no trace

Post by The_Eagle » Mar 14 2013 11:38 am

Maybe they were running their own "Back to Nature" test? :M2C:
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
Dave Barry

User avatar
SgtLumpy
Posts: 63
Joined: Feb 24 2013 12:25 pm
City, State: N Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: leave no trace

Post by SgtLumpy » Mar 14 2013 12:22 pm

As you start up the trail to "Inspirational Viewpoint" in the McDowell Sonoran Preserve, there is a large rock that someone has spraypainted with some inspirational saying. I don't care what it says or how "appropriate" some idiot thinks it is, that kind of behavior is disgusting.


Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

User avatar
SgtLumpy
Posts: 63
Joined: Feb 24 2013 12:25 pm
City, State: N Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: leave no trace

Post by SgtLumpy » Mar 14 2013 12:27 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:if someone ever harasses me for chucking an apple core out into the middle of nowhere-- they will quickly be asked about the gas they used to get there, the carbon emissions they have added to that very same environment, the fluids their car is leaking in the parking lot, the very trail they are hiking on, and the disruptive effect they are having over the wildlife in the area. LNT is a good thing to keep in mind and strive for but the only true way to "leave no trace" is to not be there. We are out there disrupting nature because it is our hobby-- accept it. ;)
Leave no trace isn't about "harassing" others. It's the internal feeling one gets from deciding to leave their dog poop, beer can, apple core etc in the wilderness. "The only way to LNT is to not go at all" is hardly any kind of excuse for dog poop, beer cans or apple cores. That's why I (again) suggest, make the decision for yourself. Ask yourself "Is the wilderness area BETTER OFF if I leave or if I pack out my apple core?".

If you honestly think that your leaving that apple core is a GOOD thing, then at least you've made the decision. I'm not suggesting anybody harass anyone.


Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

User avatar
azbackpackr
Posts: 8125
Joined: Jan 21 2006 6:46 am
City, State: Flag-summer-Needles-winter

Re: leave no trace

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 14 2013 12:34 pm

I'm going into the wilderness with a bad mood, and when I come out, I find I have left it behind. So, someone may go in after me and find my bad mood. But I don't really care, since I have already left the area...




:D
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

Post Reply

Return to “Hiking 101”


cron