Dutchman's Mine

Lost Dutchman

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rally_toad
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Dutchman's Mine

Post by rally_toad » Aug 01 2007 7:13 am

I was curious about what your guys feelings about the legend of the lost dutchman's mine were. Did it exist? Is it a hoax? Was it in the Superstitions? If so where are possible locations? I just was curious and wanted to see some other people's opinion on the mine and thought it would make an interesting topic to chat about.

I am fascinated by the history and the legend.
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djui5
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by djui5 » Aug 01 2007 9:31 pm

Hey Rally,
I'm a big "LDM" guy. It is what got me into hiking the Superstitions, thankfully.

To answer your questions, I am 100% positive Waltz did have a mine in the Superstitions. There is gold/physical evidence to prove it. "Where" is the billion dollar question :) People have been trying to answer that for over 100 years.

What books have you read?

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rally_toad
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by rally_toad » Aug 01 2007 9:48 pm

I have only read the Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness and it was really interesting to me all the legends and the rich history. I find the tale of the spanish massacre interesting and what I found that was bizarre was the story of Adolph Ruth.

I am looking into getting a copy of Thunder God's Gold and other books on the subjects. Have you read any interesting books that you would reccomend?

I would like to believe the legend but I am still undecided on whether the mine actually exists.

Has anyone on this forum done any serious looking for the mine? Has anyone here found evidence of one?

Obviously I am not expecting anyone to disclose exact locations.
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Hoffmaster
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by Hoffmaster » Aug 01 2007 10:21 pm

Some good books on the Lost Dutchman subject are: The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz by Helen Corbin and The Sterling Legend by Estee Conaster.
A great fiction book related to the subject is Crooked Mountain by Ron Feldman. He runs a horse-back riding operation out of the Goldfield Ghost Town. You can take rides into the Superstitions. Ron Feldman is the only person who currently holds a permit to dig for the Lost Dutchman Mine in the Supes. Interesting guy.

Since you asked; here's what I believe. I believe that there was no mine, but there may have been a cache that Jacob Waltz got his gold from. I think there is evidence to suggest that the gold Jacob Waltz had in his possession, was not exacly identicle to gold that might be found in the Supes. Mine or cache, I believe the earthquake in the late 1800's buried it for all time.

It's a really interesting subject, and like djui5, it is partially responsible for my interest in hiking. Whatever you decide to believe, have fun with it.
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te_wa
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by te_wa » Aug 01 2007 11:15 pm

I go to the Supes because I think the Supes are magical. Most logical geologists will tell you that the chances of gold veins in that region are scarce to none, but the romaticism and novelty of gold mines still attract a great number of tourists, hikers, and well-wishers to the area, which brings in money to the Valley. my question: How one can point and laugh at the Bigfoot belief? (and support the myth of Superstitions Gold which I think is quite a contrary irony*). It was said by George Carlin, that from all the evidence supporting the existance of UFO's, if you tell someone you believe in UFO's they look at you like you're crazy... But millions believe in some magic man who lives up in the sky and if you question THAT belief, you are surely crazy despite the fact that the belief is based upon little to no evidence.
*There has been however areas such as a mine in Venezuela that included a great amount of gold ore in volcanic rock.
:D

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PrestonSands
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by PrestonSands » Aug 02 2007 12:18 am

rally_toad wrote:Have you read any interesting books that you would reccomend?
Some favorites from my collection: The Killer Mountains, by Curt Gentry; The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz Part 1: The Golden Dream, and The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz Part 2: The Holmes Manuscript, both by T.E. Glover; and Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time, by James Swanson and Tom Kollenborn.

Other great Superstition reading: The Lost Peralta-Dutchman Mine by Walter Gassler, and Al Senner's Lost Gold Of Superstition Mountain, by Tom Kollenborn (both may still be available at the Superstition Mountain Historical Society as rare book reprints).

Personally, I believe the mine exists, although it may well be lost forever due to the 1887 earthquake and vegetation growing over it. There are quartz veins in the Superstitions, and quartz is a common host rock for gold and other metals. I think the mine is somewhere in the Peter's Mesa area.

Even if the mine doesn't exist, the stories of those who have searched for it are quite a treasure.
"I'm going for a coffee, but you never know when a hike might break out." -Jim Gaffigan

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rally_toad
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by rally_toad » Aug 02 2007 6:33 am

Even if the mine doesn't exist, the stories of those who have searched for it are quite a treasure





you sure got that right!!!
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wallyfrack
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by wallyfrack » Aug 02 2007 7:56 am

I will second Preston on both the T.E. Glover books. I wasn't sure if the mine ever existed until I read "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz Part 1: The Golden Dream". Glover takes an investigative approach and looks for historical records. The problem being there were many legends so parts of other stories and things that are just made up have become part of the story over time. Also Walt Gassler's book/pamphlet is good. It seems Gassler had a genuine desire to find the mine and seemed to be telling his story without holding back. After reading these books take a walk up Peter's Mesa and the clues are all there. I wouldn't expect to find any gold but it makes the trip more interesting.

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SuperstitionGuy
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by SuperstitionGuy » Aug 02 2007 7:50 pm

I have been hiking and backpacking the Superstitions since the early 70's and my theory is that if Jacob truly had a rich gold mine in the Superstitions he would have bought a new set of clothes, grabbed a steamer trunk and headed back to Germany to show off his wealth. Instead he died in a small adobe home with few friends and almost no posessions. Go figure. Hike and backpack the Superstitions for what is really there, not for some prospector's lie. And they all lie....
A man's body may grow old, but inside his spirit can still be as young and restless as ever.
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rally_toad
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by rally_toad » Aug 02 2007 8:03 pm

I dont hike there due to the stories I hike there because it is really a beutiful area. Much better than other places that are a short drive from me.

But I do think the stories give me something to ponder on while I am on the trail even if they are just stories, but I am still undecided and will do more reading on the subject.
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mttgilbert
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by mttgilbert » Aug 02 2007 10:36 pm

I think Waltz high graded ore from some of the prescott area mines he worked and hid it in the supes, he probably spent most of it on booze and hookers. Why else would he have died a pauper? I also think that after all the deaths that have resulted from people looking for that (or other) gold in the mountains makes anyone who goes out looking for it crazy. I gotta say, if I did find gold out there, I would never admit it to anyone. I wouldn't even try to cash in on it. Too much bad karma.

There's too many other reasons to hike in the supes, gold is the last thing on my mind.
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PrestonSands
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by PrestonSands » Aug 03 2007 10:08 pm

matt gilbert wrote:I think Waltz high graded ore from some of the prescott area mines he worked and hid it in the supes, he probably spent most of it on booze and hookers. Why else would he have died a pauper? I also think that after all the deaths that have resulted from people looking for that (or other) gold in the mountains makes anyone who goes out looking for it crazy. I gotta say, if I did find gold out there, I would never admit it to anyone. I wouldn't even try to cash in on it. Too much bad karma.

There's too many other reasons to hike in the supes, gold is the last thing on my mind.
Maybe Jake was a generous guy. Perhaps too generous. He did give Julia Thomas money to pay off her debts. As far as dying a pauper, he was supposed to have died with a box full of gold ore under his bed, that Mr. Holmes ended up with. Too much time has passed to find out the full story on Waltz, so this will probably be a mystery forever.
The Superstitions have certainly attracted more than their fair share of nuts. My grandfather recalls meeting someone in the Supes who I believe was Maria Jones. Apparently she wanted my grandfather to know that her cabin was protected by dynamite booby traps, and to keep my dad's boy scout troop away from it.
I would never go searching for the mine. If early searchers like the Holmes' or the Petrasches couldn't find the mine, what chance is there of a present day searcher finding it?
The infinitely small chance of finding the mine is no reason to go hiking in the Superstitions in my opinion, but knowing the fascinating history of the region definately adds to your experience there.
"I'm going for a coffee, but you never know when a hike might break out." -Jim Gaffigan

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rally_toad
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by rally_toad » Aug 03 2007 10:33 pm

Went hiking to Hackberry Spring today. Stopped at the Lost Dutchman Museum on the way back definitely interesting.
What I didnt know is that JFK could have possibly had a retreat on the eastern slopes of the supes.
There was some interesting stuff in there.

If there is a mine is it a possibility that the mine has been found but the people who find it dont tell? I dont think I would tell if I found the mine I think I would leave it as is.

An exhibit said that the gold was compared to gold from other areas in the state and it did not match any of them.
The exhibit said quote "The source of the gold ore found under the dutchman's bed is yet to be determined."

Heading back up tommorow early to take a shot at the Flatiron should be alot of fun!
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djui5
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by djui5 » Aug 05 2007 10:12 pm

Preston Sands wrote: My grandfather recalls meeting someone in the Supes who I believe was Maria Jones. Apparently she wanted my grandfather to know that her cabin was protected by dynamite booby traps, and to keep my dad's boy scout troop away from it.

It probably was! That's wild your grandpa met her, she was one of the most "excentric" of the searchers. Ed Piper and Celeste used to get into fights as both were trying to find the mine right at the base of Weavers Needle. A few were shot in the process. They sure caused quite a stir :)

About the books, I would like that add that you MUST read Sims Ely's book "The Lost Dutchman Mine". It was the first major publication on the mine, and is still regarded as one of, if not THE, best books on the mine in existence. Sims was an incredible writer and spent a lot of time searching for the mine with Jim Bark. Bark personally interviewed Julia and Rhiney both I believe. Either way, it's a great read and a must for anyone interested in the history of the Superstitions.

I can agree with Preston, knowing the history of the area sure adds a LOT to the experience back there. It's baffling how much has gone on back there.

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joebartels
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by joebartels » Aug 05 2007 11:57 pm

djui5 wrote:I would like to that add that you MUST read Sims Ely's book "The Lost Dutchman Mine".
All you have to do is read about two pages, you won't be able to put it down. Just like Glover's.
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by Randal_Schulhauser » Jan 20 2008 6:23 pm

While researching the Lost Dutchman State Park Loop Hike Description, I came across Fritzki’s post on Peter’s Mesa;

“ The area is rich with Lost Dutchman lore, and the following history was graciously provided by my friend and noted expert on all things "Dutchman", Steve Creager. Steve also has several articles pending for future editions of the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal and you can also view many of his theories on the subject on Ron Feldman's web site forum ".

Although I’m not surprised by the existence of such a website, I was fascinated by the thought provoking theories posted there…


I was also pointed by Joe Bartels to an extensive list of books on this topic residing on HAZ. Check out http://hikearizona.com/books.php?sort=&cat=9

Guess I’ll have some future reading. Question though – what is considered the definitive book on this topic?

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joebartels
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by joebartels » Jan 20 2008 6:39 pm

Everybody probably has a varied opinion.

Personally I find Sims Ely's book "among" the best
http://hikearizona.com/books.php?REV=1&ID=78

Glover elaborates and cross examines everything in his undeniable masterpiece (perhaps "the" read)
http://hikearizona.com/books.php?REV=1&ID=28

Both are exciting to read.
Storms books are more of a fun read. Fun to go out and see the landmarks haven't changed since the early 1900's.
The other's are nice to examine all the view points against each other but not as exciting to read.

If anybody has read any of the books I encourage you to review them on site.
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nonot
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by nonot » Jan 20 2008 9:32 pm

Haven't found a gold mine yet, but it amazes me all of the other mines and tunnellings you find out there and realize people did all of it with hand tools. Some of the miners were finding what they were looking for. I think that many were looking for uranium and selenium(?), some found small amounts of gold, some found other minerals, some found nothing, and some were just plain crazy. If there really were Mexicans mining the Supes since long before Arizona was settled, then there is a basis for it, but I don't think Waltz found it, I think he simply got caught in a lie and continued telling it until he died, getting bigger each time, not unlike a fish story. Whatever Waltz said on his deathbed must have been convincing since the people involved abandoned their futures and most of their possessions to go look for it and thus spun the legend. But like others have said, if there was that much, he would've taken it and lived a rich man.

I think the legend is great, it plays on people's greed, but if you think about it there isn't much there:

In the Supes (gee, that narrows it down)
the sun hits it in the afternoon/sunset (great, not much help there)
north of a peak (really, which one?)
you start at the first canyon from the west (um, which one do you consider the "first")
you go over a ridge to get there (wow, helpful, there isn't a flat place in the Supes)
a 12/18 inch vein (as opposed to a 6 inch gold veins you see all over the other places.)
etc, etc

Anyway, be careful when you find old mines as they do have a habit of caving in on a few people every decade or two or being so steep you can fall down them and not get back out, there could be radiation, ammonia due to bats, or many other nasties.
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by Randal_Schulhauser » Jan 20 2008 9:44 pm

Regarding Spanish/Mexican gold;

"In 1912, Carl Silverlocke and Carl Malm found an old Spanish saddle bag filled with $18,000 worth of smelted gold near the site of the Massacre Grounds."

I'm curious, has there been any additional smelted/unsmelted gold finds since 1912 that fuel the legend about Apaches ambushing the Peralta mining crews in the 1840's?

I found the 1912 reference sited by many sources, but nothing else related to Spanish/Mexican gold...

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nonot
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Re: Dutchman's Mine

Post by nonot » Jan 21 2008 12:38 am

Browsing through old maps, did you know,

before the mountains, the superstitions were "Apache/Mohave Area"
the first references to the superstitions is simply labelled "High Mountains discovered from the Gila River"
The whole Supes area was called the "Salt River Mountains"
Later, The northern area of the Superstitions near Boulder Canyon/Geronimo Head was "Frog Peaks" and east was "Salt River Mountains" and only the south was "Superstition Mountains"
The Superstitions originally stretched as far south as Florence and only the south half of what we now consider the Supes was originally considered the supes after it was differentiated from the "Salt River Mountains".
On some maps, the superstitions include the Goldfields prior to 1900
Frog Tanks was apparently named at least by the 1860s, but it was for the area near Garden Valley today, for awhile, First Water Trailhead was "Frog Tanks trailhead"
The area near Mesquite Flat is labelled "B???y Tank" (illegible, possibly Barly)
The Goldfields were the "Gold Mines"
The Phoenix/Mesa area was originally "Area of Pima Villages"
It was known there was copper ore near the Miami/Globe area before they invented a name for the place
I-10 between Phoenix/Tucson was originally "Colonel Cooke's Wagon Road" (Wagon spelled Waggon, did they mean Crooke?)
The area south of the Supes near Gold Valley to Superior was "Pine Cotton Land"
"Weaver's Needle" was named even before Waltz's time
The Four Peaks were named even before Waltz's Time, but thought to be 8600 feet tall
Mesa appears to originally be named "Mesaville"
On several maps, the phrase "Hidden Treasure" is written next to the Superstitions (!)
"Randolf District" appears to be near the area somewhat near "Randolph Canyon"
There are two "known" gold mines in the western superstitions, you'd be rather surprised where they are supposed to be.
Sierra Anchas were "Sierra Anchias"
"Canon Creek", "Castle Creek", "Pine Creek" and "Skull Creek" flow out of the north side of the supes
Around 1900-1910 most of the mountains and creeks took on their present day names
The area near Stewart Peak was the "Steward Mountains"
Canon was the accepted spelling of "Canyon" apparently for a long time, sometimes appearing with the tilde above the n
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Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!

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