New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

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SpiderLegs
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New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by SpiderLegs » Aug 22 2014 8:31 am

New $175 Permit + $300K Insurance: Rim-to-Rim and Extended Day Hike/Run

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Who is required to obtain a permit: Any organized, non-commercial, group conducting rim-to-rim and extended day hiking and running, including rim-to-river-to-rim, and rim-to-rim-to-rim that are operating in the inner canyon. The inner canyon is defined as the area below the Tonto Platform (Tipoff and Indian Garden) from the South Rim and below Manzanita Resthouse (Pumphouse Residence) from the North Rim.

Groups including, non-profits, schools, church groups, scouts, clubs, and other similar organizations will be required to obtain an SUP for their activity. Any group, regardless of size, which has advertised to the general public, required individuals to sign up prior to participation, or that has an organizer who has been compensated for their services (including subsidized participation in the activity), are required to operate under an SUP.
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by Dave1 » Aug 27 2014 12:37 pm

From NPS Special Use Permits page:

"Who is required to obtain a permit: Any organized, non-commercial, group conducting rim-to-rim and extended day hiking and running, including rim-to-river-to-rim, and rim-to-rim-to-rim that are operating in the inner canyon. The inner canyon is defined as the area below the Tonto Platform (Tipoff and Indian Garden) from the South Rim and below Manzanita Resthouse (Pumphouse Residence) from the North Rim."

I wonder how far the "inner canyon" extends laterally? Will permits be required for a group of 2 to day hike, say, Bright Angel-Tonto-Granite Rapids-Tonto-Hermit?

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by joebartels » Aug 27 2014 12:39 pm

The "advertising" wording is unclear. I'd recommend getting written approval before posting even a non-compensated event on any public forum.

I'm most interested in the following so I sent an email
Do I need a permit to hike to the river or R2R if I simply arrange via email or talking with friends ( no public notification, no sign up, no compensation to myself or anyone ).
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by Tough_Boots » Aug 27 2014 12:57 pm

Dschur wrote:or that has an organizer who has been compensated for their services
no one is ever really compensated enough for hanging out with a bunch of HAZers, so we should be fine :D
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SpiderLegs
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by SpiderLegs » Aug 27 2014 1:13 pm

Wonder if this had anything to do with it?

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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by joebartels » Aug 27 2014 1:40 pm

Yes and the NPS one upped it by spreading fictitious statements that it was a frequent occurrence.

Doubtful many runners run in the historically high fatality months. Many of which are on the edge of the rim not even hiking.
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Re: R2R - New Restrictions Coming?

Post by BobP » Aug 27 2014 1:46 pm

cactuscat wrote:People do sign up ahead of time for trips from the valley up to the Canyon with HAZ groups, do they not?
And they generally pay drivers of carpools for gas?
They are organized groups ... so without nit-picking the technicalities and wording, if following the SPIRIT of the new regulations, I would think that HAZ groups should get permits.
1. They aren't required to...some do some don't some do and don't show up others don't and do show
2. everyone usually pays an equal share...so not subsidzed.
3. Far from organized
4. $175 for a day hike unless you have huge groups to spread the cost would make no sense to most...and isn't it the big groups that are causing the problems.
I'm all for protecting assets but this doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by friendofThundergod » Aug 27 2014 3:32 pm

@cactuscat
if following the SPIRIT of the new regulation
:pk: the spirit of the new regulation ;)

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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by SpiderLegs » Aug 27 2014 3:51 pm

So I just read the actual permit and associated requirements. The NPS said that it can take around 4 weeks to get any SUP approved, but they want people to have these in hand in a little over two weeks? Should be interesting to see how this plays out over the next month. The wording is pretty vague in parts, so if my buddy emails me about meeting him at the canyon and I bring him a case of beer does that constitute "subsidized participation"?
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by Dave1 » Aug 27 2014 4:00 pm

@SpiderLegs
Well you just advertised your plan to the public so fork over that $175 and call Flo from Progressive and tell her you need $300,000 in liability insurance.

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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by SpiderLegs » Aug 27 2014 4:10 pm

@Dave1

Dohh!! ](*,)
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by RowdyandMe » Aug 27 2014 5:29 pm

@SpiderLegs
Depends on the beer :sl:
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by azbackpackr » Aug 28 2014 8:44 am

Well, that lets me off the hook. I prefer to solo, and I don't prefer the Corridor.
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by Dave1 » Aug 28 2014 10:25 am

azbackpackr wrote:Well, that lets me off the hook. I prefer to solo, and I don't prefer the Corridor.
As far as I can tell, there is no mention of this new rule applying only to the corridor trails. Just anything below the Bright Angel Shale, which is a significant chunk of the canyon. So I guess all extended day hikes will be solo now. Much safer than hiking in a group anyway.

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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by chumley » Aug 28 2014 10:47 am

While looking at some information about this yesterday I learned something that I didn't previously realize ... and apparently neither does the NPS because I've never known it to be enforced.

From http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/hiking-faq.htm
Emphasis mine
PERMIT QUESTIONS:
Q: Do I need a permit?

A: A backcountry permit is required for all overnight use of the backcountry including overnight hiking, overnight horseback riding, overnight cross-country ski trips, off-river overnight hikes by river trip members, and overnight camping at rim sites other than developed campgrounds. A backcountry permit is not required for overnight stays at the dormitories or cabins at Phantom Ranch. A permit is not required for day hiking or day horseback riding in the canyon.
What constitutes "overnight use"?
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by Dave1 » Aug 28 2014 11:10 am

cactuscat wrote:I would think that HAZ groups should get permits.
So much for meeting new people :(

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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by SpiderLegs » Aug 28 2014 11:24 am

A friend of mine has a R2R2R trip planned that he let me know about via email and private messaging on Facebook. So I sent an email to the Grand Canyon asking about this earlier today. Told them what we had planned, that there would be 4-5 of us and nothing has been posted publicly online or anywhere else. Here is there reply:

"We apologize for any confusion that this new SUP is causing. You will not need a permit under this new agreement. It is meant to address organized runs, hikes, and activities that would put an extra strain on the staff and trail.

Thank you for your interest in Grand Canyon National Park"


So it appears that the key word is "organized" at this point. My take from looking at other forums and postings is that the NPS will be monitoring Facebook, MeetUp and other places where people would post an open invitation thereby "organizing" an event. This is in addition to schools, scout troops, church groups who may organize a trip.
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by big_load » Aug 28 2014 11:30 am

I do too much organizing at work. Anything I do on my own time is strictly disorganized.

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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by mazatzal » Aug 28 2014 12:07 pm

From now on all GC HAZ events are officially disorganized :) even if they weren't already ;)

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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by chumley » Aug 28 2014 2:08 pm

My interpretation of this is that you are not permitted to organize an event online. This is probably focused on websites that run events arranging transportation either to/from the canyon, to/from one rim to the other, or both. It probably is also focused on sites like Meetup or public Facebook event pages where hikes like this are organized and any number of people can sign up.

I would think that an event posting on the HAZ forum is also prohibited under the new rules, but not arrangements made through PM invites.

Even if it is a public post here on haz, if the group is 4-5 people I don't think you would have any problems. :M2C:

What this policy does not do is prevent the rush of hikers who make the R2R treks in the few weeks before the North Rim closes in October and just after it opens in the spring. There are a lot of individuals, or small private groups that hike during those peak seasons, and can and will continue to do so.

Ultimately it might take something like the Half Dome permit system where only a certain number of hikers are permitted to cross either of the two bridges on any given day.
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by ddgrunning » Aug 29 2014 12:31 pm

@cactuscat
I think the regulations are ambiguous, as well as inconsistent in their treatment of the specifically identified groups:

Groups including, non-profits, schools, church groups, scouts, clubs, and other similar organizations will be required to obtain an SUP for their activity. Any group, regardless of size, which has advertised to the general public, required individuals to sign up prior to participation, or that has an organizer who has been compensated for their services (including subsidized participation in the activity), are required to operate under an SUP.

As a scout leader and member of a church group that organizes hikes, I don't: (a) advertise to the general public, or (b) get compensated as an organizer---which begs the question as to why scouts (or other specifically listed groups that don't advertise or compensate organizers are called out).

By using the conjunction "OR," I suppose the suggestion is that any one of the three criteria would kick in the permit requirement--i.e., simply requiring participants to sign up. That seems like a ridiculously overbroad interpretation, though. If all you have to do to fall within the permit requirement is require participants to "sign up prior to participation," then what group would ever be excluded from being required to get a permit??!! Under that scenario, anyone who accepts (i.e., “signs up prior to participation”) an informal invitation from his buddy or family member to do R-2-R must get a permit. :tt: ](*,)

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