New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Rim to Rim to Rim

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SpiderLegs
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New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by SpiderLegs »

New $175 Permit + $300K Insurance: Rim-to-Rim and Extended Day Hike/Run

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Who is required to obtain a permit: Any organized, non-commercial, group conducting rim-to-rim and extended day hiking and running, including rim-to-river-to-rim, and rim-to-rim-to-rim that are operating in the inner canyon. The inner canyon is defined as the area below the Tonto Platform (Tipoff and Indian Garden) from the South Rim and below Manzanita Resthouse (Pumphouse Residence) from the North Rim.

Groups including, non-profits, schools, church groups, scouts, clubs, and other similar organizations will be required to obtain an SUP for their activity. Any group, regardless of size, which has advertised to the general public, required individuals to sign up prior to participation, or that has an organizer who has been compensated for their services (including subsidized participation in the activity), are required to operate under an SUP.
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Sredfield
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by Sredfield »

I understand that "problem" is the huge events like a corporation's social committee chartering a bus and dropping 25-50-+ people at the trail head. Hard to imagine 6-8 hikers attracting any enforcement attention.

Some Sierra Club hikers once organized a R2R, and I went. I drove one of three blue vans back to the south rim after hiking north the day before. Adolph the Nazi guard allowed the first one thru, but by the time we got there in the third, we were a commercial operation in his mind and he charged everyone in the bus an entrance fee, never mind that there were three season passes in the van I was driving. The two people in the van who didn't have the season pass had to pay the $25 fee each.

I've passed that stage of life, picked up my geezer pass at Tusayan last weekend.
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cactuscat
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by cactuscat »

azbackpackr wrote:the food is actually edible (unlike Yavapai).
The food at Yavapai will be MUCH better when we take it over - and there will be a bar, with outdoor seating and firepit ... it's gonna be nice! :)
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azbackpackr
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by azbackpackr »

cactuscat wrote:
azbackpackr wrote:the food is actually edible (unlike Yavapai).
The food at Yavapai will be MUCH better when we take it over - and there will be a bar, with outdoor seating and firepit ... it's gonna be nice! :)
:)
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quadman
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by quadman »

@nikorock28
I just read that Xanterra is not going to 'forced out' of the contract without a fight. Now this is really going to be interesting.

http://grandcanyonnews.com/main.asp?Sec ... M=40404.04
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SpiderLegs
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/R

Post by SpiderLegs »

Now that it's been a couple of months, does anyone if the NPS is actually enforcing the SUP? Haven't heard anyone mention it on a R2R forum that I check in with occasionally.
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joebartels
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by joebartels »

Demand for permits at Grand Canyon fewer than expected
Only nine permits have been given this year
The permit program is a temporary solution while park officials craft a backcountry management plan. A first draft of that plan will be open for public comment in the fall...
http://azdailysun.com/article_013927c1- ... 2591d.html
- joe
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big_load
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by big_load »

Only nine permits provokes a strong suspicion of poor compliance.
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azbackpackr
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by azbackpackr »

Mixing apples and oranges, I suppose, but today is the day to put in for October backpacking. I have my permit app filled out, now have to go find a fax machine. It may surprise you I am putting in for an R2R backpack, since (back when I used to hike the Canyon, before the foot issues) I used to avoid the Corridor trails. But, I've never hiked N. Kaibab Trail, so, what the heck. 4 nights. I want time to explore!

Going solo.

Hoping if I get the permit I will actually be up for the hike! This new pair of shoes is giving me hope!

I am putting other options on the permit app, because I know that getting a Corridor backpacking permit is difficult.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.
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ddgrunning
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by ddgrunning »

Looks like "permit creep" is on. Now the list of otherwise covered groups includes "a family/friend group that has created its own itinerary":

Organized Group Rim-to-Rim and Extended Day Hike/Run

Who is required to obtain a permit: Any organized, non-commercial (12-30 participants) or not-for-profit group (up to 30) conducting rim-to-rim and extended day hiking and running, including rim-to-river-to-rim, and rim-to-rim-to-rim that are operating in the inner canyon. The inner canyon is defined as the area below the Tonto Platform (Tipoff and Indian Garden) from the South Rim and below Manzanita Resthouse (Pumphouse Residence) from the North Rim. Groups are only permitted one permit per group. Groups may not break into smaller groups on different permits to accommodate group size.

Groups whom must obtain a permit:

Organized Non-Commercial Groups are defined as any group traveling together, such as scouts, a club, a church, a meet up group, or a family/friend group that has created its own itinerary. Group size - 12-30 people.
All Not-for-Profit Groups are defined as a group that may meet the criteria for a non-commercial group if the organization derives no taxable income from providing leisure/recreational services. Groups must prove 501(c)(3) status. Group size - up to 30 people.
All groups' part of a Fundraiser. Group size - up to 30 people.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/management/sup.htm
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big_load
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by big_load »

I can't really object to requiring a permit for any group that large.
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chumley
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by chumley »

Yup. Over 12 people. Get a permit. In a way it sucks but it makes sense when you consider the amount of use.

It's really the only way to prevent it from becoming a permit system for EVERY hiker all the time e.g. Half Dome.

Which may also happen one day...
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ddgrunning
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by ddgrunning »

chumley wrote:Which may also happen one day...
Exactly--it's permit creep. The new system is not preventing it from becoming a permit system for every hiker. Each year they just ratchet down a little more, and by continuing to broaden the permit requirement ever so slightly each year, it eventually gets to an every-hiker-needs-a-permit system. This year it's expanded to family group of 12; next year, it's 10; the following, 8 .... If they turn up the heat slowly enough, no one will notice till the boil is on ....
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ddgrunning
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by ddgrunning »

On the plus side, it looks like the insurance has been downgraded from "required" to "recommended":

"It is recommended the group provides a certificate of insurance for general liability in the amount of $300,000 with the United States Government listed as additionally insured."
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Tough_Boots
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by Tough_Boots »

@ddgrunning

You're probably right about the "permit creep". Like Big_Load, I'm fine with permits for larger groups. Though if they do creep it down to smaller groups, I'd hate to see it backfire and send some of those runners into the backcountry.
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JasonCleghorn
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by JasonCleghorn »

This is why I hold a very flawed yet contrarian viewpoint on permits in general. I am against them, period.
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Tough_Boots
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by Tough_Boots »

@Jason Cleghorn

I can't wait to see a triplog from you the first time you experience a bottlenecked trail at a national park ;)
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chumley
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by chumley »

@Tough_Boots
Can you imagine if the Amber Hills HOA let just anybody out on their trail ... and people arrived from all over in buses and unloaded in a constant stream of people moving at varying speeds, peeing, pooping, tossing apple cores, and leaving their energy bar wrappers wherever they please?

;)
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Tough_Boots
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by Tough_Boots »

@chumley
I'm less worried about that and more worried about all the injuries from 9L elbowing his way through them :scared:
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JasonCleghorn
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by JasonCleghorn »

chumley wrote:@Tough_Boots
Can you imagine if the Amber Hills HOA let just anybody out on their trail ... and people arrived from all over in buses and unloaded in a constant stream of people moving at varying speeds, peeing, pooping, tossing apple cores, and leaving their energy bar wrappers wherever they please?

;)
Turd. :y:
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JasonCleghorn
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Re: New $175 Permit + $300K Ins: R2R and Extended Day Hike/Run

Post by JasonCleghorn »

Tough_Boots wrote:@Jason Cleghorn

I can't wait to see a triplog from you the first time you experience a bottlenecked trail at a national park ;)
To clarify my position, I don't mind user fees, I just abhor permits. As I have said before, I realize its vapid, shortsighted, naive, and silly but I cannot wrap my brain around needing permission to go onto public land.

I'm also in support of higher taxes for conservation, nature, etc. as a 'libtard'.

I just don't like the term 'permit' on public lands. I don't mind rules, guidelines, restrictions, but not a permit lottery, no sir! ;)
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