Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

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Canyonram
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Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by Canyonram » Mar 26 2012 8:11 am

Navajo Nation has announced plans for a huge commercial development on the eastern edge of the Grand Canyon Park. Plans include motel, restaurants, and a tram to take visitors down to the Colorado/Little Colorado confluence. Some of the details have been made available: http://azdailysun.com/news/local/state- ... 5b2d6.html

(If link doesn't work, web search on Arizona Daily Sun Tram objections mount)

I'd like to hear from the forum members---once again, a complex issue with no easy answers.

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chumley
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by chumley » Mar 26 2012 8:26 am

Canyonram wrote:a complex issue with no easy answers.
I disagree with this assessment. It seems very simple to me. Best quote of the article right here:
"It's not Disneyland," said Lynn Hamilton of the Grand Canyon River Guides, a canyon advocacy and environmental group. "It's one of the seven natural wonders of the world. To mar that somehow with such commercialism right there, in your face would just seem contrary to what the value of Grand Canyon is."
And to think this is being "planned" by one of the groups participating in the lawsuit for the so-called protection of the SF Peaks/Snowbowl. It reeks of hypocrisy.
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paulhubbard
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by paulhubbard » Mar 26 2012 9:57 am

Give the Snowbowl to the Navajo Nation and watch how fast it gets developed! It's not about what's best for the land, it's about what's best for the pockets.

This post is NOT intended to offend any members who belong to the Navajo Nation, if it does let Joe know and he can remove it.
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berkforbes
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by berkforbes » Mar 26 2012 11:15 am

I think its time for a new Monkey Wrench Gang to be assembled..
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by berkforbes » Mar 26 2012 11:19 am

paulhubbard wrote:This post is NOT intended to offend any members who belong to the Navajo Nation, if it does let Joe know and he can remove it.
Or perhaps, if you are offended by this statement you should put about a days worth of thought into why it offends you and how that "misconception" could be changed among the public, and how you can put forth a positive change for your people. Crying over being offended and burying the offense under a rug does nothing to better anyones cause.
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outdoor_lover
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by outdoor_lover » Mar 26 2012 11:58 am

It seems odd that the Navajo Nation, who held out for so long about Casinos on their reservation, would go for something like this. I guess next, they'll put a Roller Coaster in Window Rock and a Water Park in the middle of Monument Valley..... :(
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by Tough_Boots » Mar 26 2012 12:06 pm

Why is everyone so upset about them developing on their land? I mean, when everyone was fighting about Snowbowl it seemed like the big argument was that the indigenous people have no right because its not their land and that's how America works. Well, this is their land and now we're complaining with what they do to it? I guess the Grand Canyon is too sacred or something for people that do outdoorsy things as a hobby? Oh wait-- but the SF Peaks are sacred to them in an actual religious way? And what about uranium mining around the Grand Canyon? This is what hypocrisy is.
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BobP
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by BobP » Mar 26 2012 12:13 pm

berkforbes wrote:I think its time for a new Monkey Wrench Gang to be assembled
Idolizing polluting environmentalist is ludicrous....some guy I hiked with said that about the author of The Monkey Wrench Gang..... :-k He also says...land is only sacred if you can't put a casino on it.
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by chumley » Mar 26 2012 12:36 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:Why is everyone so upset about them developing on their land? I mean, when everyone was fighting about Snowbowl it seemed like the big argument was that the indigenous people have no right because its not their land and that's how America works.
I agree with this. They have every right to develop their land, just as the Hualapai tribe has done with Skywalk on the western side. But as the article states, there will be a legal fight to determine who actually owns the land that they wish to develop. If the development authority wishes to engage in that battle, I'm all for it. Once the land-ownership dispute has been settled in the courts, and if they win and determine that the land up to the banks of the river belong to the tribe, then they can begin the environmental studies necessary to do any development. There are decades of environmental studies required, right? :roll:
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by outdoor_lover » Mar 26 2012 2:04 pm

@Tough_Boots
You have a very good point and I completely understand it. It's just hard sometimes because growing up, I really studied and enjoyed Native American History and applauded the ethics of Native Americans and their philosphies of the natural world around them. They were stewards of the land and they did well. Then the white man came in and tainted not only their existence, but their principles over time. I still remember a commercial as a child, of the Indian shedding a tear about all of the littering and trashing of the country. Now, the areas around the communities on the Reservations in the Southwest, are some of the trashiest, dirtiest places imaginable. It's like some of the Native American community has done a 180 as far as being stewards and respecting the land in which they live.

I know with the casinos and all of the other "tourist" destinations that they have built, they tend to keep those places fairly clean, but they have to, since their $$$ depend on it. IMHO, I feel that it's no longer about doing what's best for the environment, like the old ways, but only about the almighty buck and it's a d*** shame. But I guess that some of the Native American community feel that they shouldn't have to be any different than the rest of us, in the commercial gain for the piece of the pie.

I just wince alot when it involves something so pristine as this....(The GC). Maybe simply because it doesn't just impact the Reservation, but also the entire area as a whole.... :?
Last edited by outdoor_lover on Mar 26 2012 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 26 2012 2:15 pm

I think it's a ploy. I don't think they intend to do it. I think it's political. They want other concessions from the Hopis, so they say they are going to build something that would be unutterably offensive to the Hopis, which the Navajos know perfectly well. So, the Hopis may grant other concessions to the Navajos in order to prevent this one from happening.
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by big_load » Mar 26 2012 2:31 pm

@azbackpackr I wondered if there was something like that going on. People discussing this elsewhere haven't even mentioned the Hopis, without whom any discussion of indigenous rights is severely lacking.

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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 26 2012 2:36 pm

OK, I did hear this idea through the grapevine. I didn't just make it up out of my head. (I'm not that perceptive.)
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by big_load » Mar 26 2012 2:42 pm

azbackpackr wrote:I didn't just make it up out of my head.
Actually, it was the very first thing I thought when I read where they wanted to do it.

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paulhubbard
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by paulhubbard » Mar 26 2012 3:50 pm

I remember this from a vacation when I was a mere lad... can you imagine the Zipline ride to the bottom of the GC?

http://www.royalgorgebridge.com/
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by Tough_Boots » Mar 26 2012 3:52 pm

Outdoor Lover wrote: I still remember a commercial as a child, of the Indian shedding a tear about all of the littering and trashing of the country. Now, the areas around the communities on the Reservations in the Southwest, are some of the trashiest, dirtiest places imaginable. It's like the Native American community has done a 180 as far as being stewards and respecting the land in which they live.
Unfortunately your childhood view of Native Americans is quite false. That man crying in the commercial was actually an Italian actor. The reservations have been dirty since day one-- they are basically third-world. Its unfortunate but true. I would also not say that the rich and powerful on the reservation always reflect the views of the others-- just like in the rest of the world.
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 26 2012 4:06 pm

Yes, they have some similar problems to any other society (Third World or otherwise), where there are very often some very greedy and corrupt people in power, but the rank and file have very little power or say-so. We can say the same things about any city or county in Arizona, (or about our truly frightening and horrific state legislature) but it's not PC to mention problems of corruption and greed in tribal governments? Maybe some of the Native Americans would like to know we're on their side against corruption and greed.

Other tribes are in total disarray Look at what is happening on the White Mountain Apache Reservation:
http://www.silverbelt.com/v2_news_artic ... ry_id=3492
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... uster.html
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by outdoor_lover » Mar 26 2012 4:20 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:I would also not say that the rich and powerful on the reservation always reflect the views of the others-- just like in the rest of the world.
Unfortunately, it's not just the rich and powerful that no longer care for the land....

I had actually just edited that part, before I read your post. I didn't like the way I said that either, as it is not true....But thanks for pointing that out Kyle.

And I know that that character was an actor. And yes, the reservations were bad when I was a kid too, but I was a kid so I was ignorant as far as how bad things were, other than I knew that life on the Reservation was very very poor....

But just because you're poor, doesn't mean you have to live like a slob. I see that in South Phoenix too, but the Reservations that I have been on and worked on are horrible. I walked into a rural type backyard one time on a Res, looking for a phone box, and even though it was about a 1/2 acre of land, you couldn't see the ground anywhere. There was so much garbage, junk and tons of clothes spread all over. It's ironic, but I actually felt guilty about walking all over someone's belongings, but there was no other way to get there. The entire area was very similar like that, not just that particular yard.
I couldn't wait for that job to be over.....

San Carlos Lake is a great example also. What a trashy waste of a beautiful resource....
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by Tough_Boots » Mar 26 2012 5:52 pm

Outdoor Lover wrote:But just because you're poor, doesn't mean you have to live like a slob.
True, but this seems to be the case in many poverty stricken communities-- I'm not sure why Native Americans get picked on more for it. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being decimated, growing up watching your elders become depressed and chemical dependent, and not seeing much of a life outside of that. There isn't that kind of all-encompassing poverty anywhere else in the country. The friends of mine that grew up on the Rez and left are all either much luckier or much stronger than most people. Unfortunately, the more unsightly the issue becomes-- the less we want to see it.
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Re: Commercial development/Tram into Grand Canyon

Post by outdoor_lover » Mar 26 2012 8:48 pm

Tough_Boots wrote:I'm not sure why Native Americans get picked on more for it.
I don't think it's a matter of being picked on, at least not by me. I have absolutely nothing against Native Americans...'
I think it's just more about visibility and numbers.

You say it yourself here....
Tough_Boots wrote:There isn't that kind of all-encompassing poverty anywhere else in the country.
I totally agree. There are areas in every metropolitan area in the country that have serious poverty, but it's just not 99% of the entire population of that metropolitan area, like it is on the Res. So it's alot more noticeable on the Res because it's everywhere you look...

Even in the worst areas of Phoenix, there are still houses where the people there have taken the time to try and make their house and yards clean. It doesn't cost you anything to go outside and pick up the trash in your yard and dispose of it somehow. But it's all about numbers. When the entire community is poor and half of them are too sick or don't care enough about their trash, it becomes alot of trash....Same with South Phoenix, but it is on a much smaller scale, because it's just South Phoenix and now with new developments there, it's only certain areas within South Phoenix. If 99% of Metropolitan Phoenix was in a poverty state, it would look just like some of the Reservations....And people would notice, because it's unavoidable to see....There are small communities outside of Reservations that are pretty poor areas and it's the same type of mentality or problem...

But we were talking about the Navajo Nation here in this thread and their plans and some of the disregard for maintaining a pristine, unique, geological feature, in exchange for the almighty buck....I really hope that the GC does not become a circus attraction....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming, "Wow What a Ride!"

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