Red Rock Pass Lies

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Jim_H
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Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by Jim_H »

The real title of the thread should be Red Rock Pass BS, but I didn't think Joe would want that in thread title.
I managed to drive my civic all the way to the Dry Creek Trailhead yesterday via FR 251 or Dry Creek Road. The road had been closed for four days during the previous week for maintenance, even though the FS didn't do anything to the road that actually improved it. I had walked almost the entire length of the road when it was closed, and I can say they hardly did anything to the road. They only thing the incompetent FS did was dump gravel in the areas where puddles had been. They didn't do anything about dumping gravel on the slopes that were badly eroded, did nothing about the huge rocks that stick up out of the road on slopes and level areas, and overall they made no improvements to the road; things that would have made my drive easier even though I did make it in and out. It took them 4 days of having the road closed to do absolutely nothing. I suppose that people without SUVs, trucks, or a rented Sedona Jeep aren't supposed to hike the trails up there, Red Rocks Pass holder or not.

I guess the Red Rocks Pass money must have run out for road maintenance, you know, since they spend it all on that Fire Engine they boast about at trail heads. I know I proudly pay a fee to hike so I can buy Sedona Fire Equipment and not have the roads to trails actually improved, not have trails that aren't sissy tourist trails improved, and not really get anything for the price of a pass besides knowing that 50% of it goes to "administrative costs" so that I have the good warm feeling of employing someone in a private outfit who has a contract with the FS to make sure people at trail heads bought a pass.

Does it make any sense to have a Red Rocks Pass run by a private company which uses half of that money to employ its pass workers, and then buy Sedona Fire Engines? When did Sedona's fire department become my concern as a hiker? Why am I paying for this? Maybe Sedona's High School needs a new soccer field, why don't we pay for that too? How about a Sedona DARE program, they could use one of those, too, I am sure. What the hell is a pass with proceeds that are supposed to be about improving trail conditions and trail heads doing buying fire engines? The wealthy pricks who buy those McMansions in the brush of Sedona might have their precious out of place over compensation piece burn down, so I have to pay to protect it? That engine cost a huge amount of money. I would have much rather seen that money go towards trail maintenance on trails I use, not on something the taxes from Sedona residents and businesses should be buying.

My pass expires shortly. I plan to keep hiking in Oak Creek Canyon this summer, and then move back down to the Sedona area by Autumn, but I have no intention of buying a pass. I don't care if it's $20 for a yearly pass. I get it at Safeway, so you know they get a cut. How much do you think actually goes towards trails? If it wasn't about money, they would give yearly passes away to people who put in 8 hours of trail work a year. That I could get behind, but not what currently exists.
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azbackpackr
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by azbackpackr »

A lot of people didn't know you could use your annual national park pass for both Catalina Highway and Red Rock. I have used it for both. Trouble is, at least at Red Rock, they wanted you to place your original card on your dashboard. Same at Madera Canyon, where I have used it for same. This ruins your card after awhile, and also, since the card is worth $80, and so could be cause for a break-in of your car.

At least on Catalina Highway, if you showed them your NPS pass they would give you a paper pass, thus protecting your card.

How many people in Tucson bought the $20 pass not knowing that their NPS pass was sufficient? How many people bought the Red Rock pass who also had the NPS pass? How many people pay to park at Madera, instead of using your card on the dashboard?
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rwstorm
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by rwstorm »

Don't know where to post this, but today I was up at the Mingus Mountain Recreation area to hike with a Phoenix Meetup Group. We parked at the trailhead near the campground area. The sign there clearly stated there was a $5 day use fee. No problem. That would normally mean for me only $2.50 with my senior pass. But the sign also clearly stated that there was NO FEE if you were in possession of one of the valid passes, with an arrow to the left showing the passes (one of which was the senior pass). So while our group was hanging around getting to know each other before the hike in the lot, the FS volunteer (campground host type) comes by and starts checking vehicles. He the comes up to the group and lets us know which ones aren't in compliance. Some needed to pay and did, but then he said I wasn't in compliance with my senior pass hanging from the rear view mirror. WTF? I pointed out to him the wording on the sign, and he said that it referred to accessing the area, not doing anything while there (or something to that effect). I decided that I wasn't going to be a part of this individual's arbitrary interpretation of the rules, said goodbye to my friends, and left. Yeah, I could have put the $2.50 in the envelope, but it was a matter of principle, based on what the sign said. I have given in before on issues like this, but not anymore.
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Jim_H
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by Jim_H »

I would have told him to call a LEO and have them come out and explain why the sign was not in effect. Seems you had a very zealous and ignorant volunteer rob you of a hike.
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beterarcher
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by beterarcher »

Was the FS volunteer saying you needed a Red Rock pass or was it some other pass? I could have sworn that I saw a sign saying "You are now leaving the red rock recreation area" while traveling west on 89A, just before the turnoff for Paige Springs.
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azbackpackr
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by azbackpackr »

There is one way to avoid this problem. Stay out of Sedona. I do.
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rwstorm
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by rwstorm »

@azbackpackr
Good point Liz, but I wasn't anywhere near Sedona. Pretty sure Mingus Mountain is just standard Prescott NF stuff.
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hikeaz
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by hikeaz »

Well.... first off the fed gubment's own law specifically prohibits charging for merely parking. Secondly, the PNF's site says that a Senior Pass IS accepted for use of the amenities >> http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/prescott/passes-permits.
Remember: You need not pay a fee to HIKE - only if you use any of the amenities.
This (PNF) is another example of the arrogance of the gub'ment and their lackeys, taking advantage of the uninformed or misinformed. They should be ashamed, but shame seems to not exist any longer - it's just a money-grab, plain and simple.
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beterarcher
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by beterarcher »

hikeaz wrote:taking advantage of the uninformed or misinformed.
That's the whole problem right there.
Understand, when you eat meat, that something did die. You have an obligation to value it - not just the sirloin but also all those wonderful tough little bits.
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azbackpackr
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by azbackpackr »

RWStorm wrote:@azbackpackr
Good point Liz, but I wasn't anywhere near Sedona. Pretty sure Mingus Mountain is just standard Prescott NF stuff.
Oh, yeah, duh! I knew that! Anyway, I'd report that guy.

Show up with two people, one with a pretty good video camera, and have one person make a film of any discussion that occurs with this guy. Be polite but firm.
Last edited by azbackpackr on Sep 16 2013 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by rwstorm »

azbackpackr wrote:Anyway, I'd report that guy
I'm thinking about it.
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azbackpackr
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by azbackpackr »

RWStorm wrote:
azbackpackr wrote:Anyway, I'd report that guy
I'm thinking about it.
I edited my previous remark before you saw it, also--regarding making a video of the transaction.
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rwstorm
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by rwstorm »

@azbackpackr
Good idea. The key is to be polite and not give away you are setting him up. lol Not for me however. No way it is worth my time/energy/money to drive the 220 miles up there to do it. Leave to the locals. ;)
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big_load
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by big_load »

I don't like the Tonto Pass, but its application and enforcement (not to mention general fairness) are commendable compared to the Red Rock Pass.
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CannondaleKid
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by CannondaleKid »

big_load wrote:I don't like the Tonto Pass
I don't like that they expire... I know you just scratch out the date you use them but the last two I had, the latest year available to scratch out is 2011. ](*,)

But then again it's pretty rare I need one so being out the $10 it isn't a big deal (They were still $5 each when I bought them)
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by RedRoxx44 »

Reminds me of the time a friend and I had had enough of jeeping an old wagon road in the Jacumba area and decided to exit thru a convenient hole cut in a fence to access interstate 8. Road crew had placed some big boulders there but that was no problem for the rock crawler red jeep. As we proceeded in this illegal activity a border patrol guy pulled over and patiently watched me 2 and 3 wheel up and over . He then talked to my friend briefly who was out of the jeep spotting. He stated " well, I would give you a ticket if I was CHP, or Anza Borrego park officer, but I'm not. Good driving, want a job??"
At least he didn't try to BS us---too much ;)
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chumley
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by chumley »

RedRoxx44 wrote: At least he didn't try to BS us---too much ;)
Probably helps that you didn't have 14 people in the back of the Jeep :whistle:
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azbackpackr
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by azbackpackr »

chumley wrote:
RedRoxx44 wrote: At least he didn't try to BS us---too much ;)
Probably helps that you didn't have 14 people in the back of the Jeep :whistle:
That reminds me of coming back from backpacking in the Huachucas with my sons' Scout troop. I was following behind the van full of Boy Scouts, just north of Sierra Vista, when suddenly a Border Patrol LE vehicle whizzed past me, lights and sirens, and pulled them over! I laughed all the way home to Tucson.
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by SuperstitionGuy »

azbackpackr wrote:That reminds me of coming back from backpacking in the Huachucas with my sons' Scout troop. I was following behind the van full of Boy Scouts, just north of Sierra Vista, when suddenly a Border Patrol LE vehicle whizzed past me, lights and sirens, and pulled them over! I laughed all the way home to Tucson.
Let's face it, Boy Scouts are dangerous as they are uniformed and all carry one or two knifes. :sl:
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Re: Red Rock Pass Lies

Post by hikeaz »

RWStorm wrote:Don't know where to post this, but today I was up at the Mingus Mountain Recreation area to hike with a Phoenix Meetup Group. We parked at the trailhead near the campground area. The sign there clearly stated there was a $5 day use fee. No problem. That would normally mean for me only $2.50 with my senior pass. But the sign also clearly stated that there was NO FEE if you were in possession of one of the valid passes, with an arrow to the left showing the passes (one of which was the senior pass). So while our group was hanging around getting to know each other before the hike in the lot, the FS volunteer (campground host type) comes by and starts checking vehicles. He the comes up to the group and lets us know which ones aren't in compliance. Some needed to pay and did, but then he said I wasn't in compliance with my senior pass hanging from the rear view mirror. WTF? I pointed out to him the wording on the sign, and he said that it referred to accessing the area, not doing anything while there (or something to that effect). I decided that I wasn't going to be a part of this individual's arbitrary interpretation of the rules, said goodbye to my friends, and left. Yeah, I could have put the $2.50 in the envelope, but it was a matter of principle, based on what the sign said. I have given in before on issues like this, but not anymore.


Event Name: Recreation Fees Waived / National Public Lands Day
Event Type(s): Community Events

Description: The U.S. Forest Service will waive day-use fees associated with many recreation sites or amenities on national forest sites.
The Prescott National Forest will waive fees at Lynx Lake Recreation Area, Granite Basin, Thumb Butte, Alto Pit OHV, Hayfield Draw Ohv and Mingus Lake.
Event Date: 09-28-13

Event Time: Day Use / Dawn to Dusk
Location: Prescott National Forest Trails & Day Use
Prescott, AZ 86302


Contact Person: dmaneely@fs.fed.us
(phone: 928-443-8000)
Details: Day Use Fees Are Waived Today.
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