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state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 15 2012 1:52 pm
by beterarcher
:SB: This is my first post since I joined HAZ. I was born in Arizona and lived here for 29 years before moving to California for 13 years. Well, I'm back now for good. If I'm not mistaken, there was no need for a state trust land (STL) access permit when I left the state in 1999. I live in north Phoenix and hike, bike, watch wildlife, shoot archery targets and geocache the STL near my home.
I've been confronted by city police twice in the year that I've been back for being parked on dirt and the officers just took down my name and said they were not going to cite me. I think they just use the law to checK people for warrants and illegal activities. It seems as if there are enough laws on the books to justify these "stop and talks". The no parking or driving on dirt thing is supposed to reduce dust in the area, yet there are no restrictions on the dust blowers that lawn service people use! I was at a local park last week and the city workers were mowing the dirt! Does anybody remember when one would use rakes and brooms to clean up one's yard? The other day, on TV, I saw some polititian talking about the increasing dust storms we get (I refuse to use the word haboub) and he said that one way to reduce these storms would be to pave over the areas that contribute to the airborne dust. Great idea!, all we need is more asphalt!
If the Arizona State Land Department would find a way to clean up some of the illegal dumping that is rampant in these areas, one might feel a justification in buying a STL yearly pass. From what I understand, none of the revenue from the sales of these passes goes toward doing this. There might be a way to encurage volunteers to help.
There are areas in which I have seen evidence of cactus thievery. I found truck tracks that meander through and over the native flora destroying plants, cactus and animal's burrows alike. the area just north of the 101 freeway at 56st has been land surveyed for expansion of a subdivision.
I hunt and fish but with the economy as it is I cannot afford either liscense (which I understand would grant me permission to use STL) so I haven't hunted or fished since I've returned to Arizona. Being of Native American descent (Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma) I believe the rights of any person or group of people to use the land respectfully should not be taken away.
These STLs suport a wide range of wildlife: Coyote, Bobcat, Raccoons, Skunks, Javalina, Jack Rabbits, Cottontail Rabbits, Ground Squirrles, Rock Squirrles, Antelope Squirrles, Pack Rats, Deer Mice, Rattlesnakes, Coachwhip Snakes, King Snakes, Bull Snakes, Tarantulas, Tarantula Hawks, Hairy Scorpions, Centepedes, several types of hawk and falcon, Turkey Vultures, Abert's Towhee, Northern Cardinal, Humming Birds, Cactus Wrens, Thrashers, Road Runners, Mocking Birds, Crowned Sparrows, Great Horned Owls, various Flycatchers, Black Phoebe, Verdins, Verios, Pyrahuxlia, Phainopepla, Colorado River Toad, Spadefoot Toad.... These are just the ones I can remember seeing at this time.
I used to TRUST the state to take care of State TRUST Land, now... not so much. If you can find an area of STL that is reasonably free of trash, go out and use it. All said, I will continue to use these STLs respectfully....Without a yearly pass! Give me a ticket, you cant get blood from a stone! LESS BIG GOVERNMENT!


"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."

Ancient Indian Proverb

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 15 2012 2:29 pm
by chulavista
beterarcher wrote: I will continue to use these STLs respectfully....Without a yearly pass! Give me a ticket, you cant get blood from a stone! LESS BIG GOVERNMENT!
Although I totally understand where you are coming from, your last statement I needed to comment to. The STL permit is $15 per person, $20 per family. Although I don't have the experience myself, I do know of people who have had ATVs confiscated because of being on STL without a permit. They were also told during the process that they could have taken everything in their possession including their vehicles.

The fishing and hunting license gives you permission to be on STL ONLY while participating in said event you have purchased your license to do. So if you are no where around a fishing hole, not carrying a fishing pole, or not actively hunting, etc, your license will not protect you.

As much as I agree with your soapbox, I find it much, much cheaper and a lot less hassle to purchase the permit versus trying to retrieve all my possessions after they have been confiscated. It's your choice. I wish you luck.

Kate

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 15 2012 3:06 pm
by beterarcher
chulavista wrote:
beterarcher wrote: I will continue to use these STLs respectfully....Without a yearly pass! Give me a ticket, you cant get blood from a stone! LESS BIG GOVERNMENT!

As much as I agree with your soapbox, I find it much, much cheaper and a lot less hassle to purchase the permit versus trying to retrieve all my possessions after they have been confiscated. It's your choice. I wish you luck.

Kate
Thanks Kate, for your good wishes. I'll file this one away in my brain for later consideration. I only hike these areas because I can't afford gas to drive to real (non-STL) hiking areas that are not over crowded. Over crowding leads to poor wildlife viewing. By the way the officers never mentioned the confiscation of all possessions. Kind of scary! Maybe I'll be able to buy a hunting license sooner or later and carry my bow with me. Rabbit season is all year long!

thanks again for your input

Michael

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 15 2012 3:21 pm
by chumley
The first two lines of the answer pretty much sums it up. STL is NOT public land!
Q: Why do I need a permit to go on State Trust land for recreation purposes and how do I obtain a recreational permit?
Arizona State Trust lands are not "public lands", as are Federal lands under the management of the U.S. Forest Service or the Bureau of Land Management. Federal "public lands" are managed for the benefit and use of the public, while State Trust lands are managed for the benefit of 13 Trust beneficiaries, which include the public schools and prisons. The Land Department's trust management responsibilities include requiring a permit or lease and charging a fee for use of Trust land. Exceptions to this requirement are licensed hunters and fishers, actively pursuing game or fish, in-season, and certain archaeological activities permitted by the Arizona State Museum.

A ‘Recreational Use Permit’ is temporary and revocable and does not permit commercial, competitive or group events. Lands leased for agriculture, mining, commercial, or military purposes are not open to recreational use. Other State Trust Lands may be closed to some or all recreational uses due to hazardous conditions, dust abatement, in coordination with the Arizona Game & Fish Department or based on certain State, County or Local laws or ordinances.

Recreational Permit allows the signatory limited privileges to use State Trust Land for some recreation. Recreation under this permit is limited to hiking, horseback riding, picnics, bicycling, photography, sightseeing, and bird watching. Camping is restricted to no more than 14 days per year. Off-Highway Vehicular travel on State Trust Land is not permitted without proper licensing.

The holder of an Arizona State Land Department (ASLD) Recreation Permit (Permittee) shall respect the land, the rights and improvements of other authorized users, and exercise appropriate discretion to protect native plants, cultural and historic sites and the environment. Permittee shall stay on existing and designated roads and trails. Permittee shall comply with all Federal, State, County, and Municipal laws and ordinances, while on State Trust Land.

The Permittee shall not use State Trust Land that is closed by the State Land Commissioner. The Permittee shall not: disrupt plant and wildlife on, blaze trails across, visit historic and prehistoric archeological sites on, or remove natural products from State Trust Land. The Permittee shall not cause any refuse or allow any other foreign objects to be deposited on State Trust Land. The Permittee shall not discharge a firearm on State Trust Land, except pursuant to lawful and licensed hunting.

I can't recall for certain if I purchased permits all the way back to 99, but I'm pretty sure I did. At least if I'm remembering some of my early 4x4 trips to box canyon via Florence correctly!
STL is governed by state law. Specifically ARS Title 37, Article 1 (Read all about it here http://www.keytlaw.com/az/ars/arstitle37.htm). I can't find the history of the ARS 37, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't adopted in the last 10-15 years.

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 15 2012 3:43 pm
by chulavista
I'm digging through memory cobwebs in my brain, but it seems to me this law about using State Trust Land and requiring a permit has been on the books for a long time. Long time translates into who knows what, but I'm vaguely remembering a conversation we were having with folks who had been checked.

At any rate, it's been there a long time, they have chosen in the last 10-15 years to slowly start enforcing that law. I started purchasing permits in 2008 when I found out about the law. I found out about the law when I heard about the guys losing their ATVs.

And yes Chumley, you are absolutely right. State Trust vs BLM / public lands are two different animals. Where I live, there are blocks of public lands, private lands and state trust lands. Some boundaries are not marked. It is the responsibility of the user (meaning you and I) to know where these boundaries are, and if you happen to be stopped on state trust land, ignorance of the boundaries will not be a good excuse to get you out of trouble.

I had a conversation with another friend of mine that was fishing up on the rim - I want to say Knoll lake a few years back. He told me he ran into forest rangers that had car trailers on their trucks with several ATVs on each trailer. He got into a conversation with them, and asked about the ATVs. The ranger told him the ATVs had been confiscated due to no State Trust permits, and no licensing, etc.

Edit to say I didn't know Forest Service enforced laws on State Trust land, but this is getting in much deeper than my knowledge. I just know what he told me.

Kate

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 15 2012 6:58 pm
by beterarcher
Wow, who would have thought you'd need a law degree and a stack of land use maps to go out in the local desert to enjoy nature. :--:

thanks Kate and Chumley,

Michael

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 15 2012 7:43 pm
by chulavista
beterarcher wrote:Wow, who would have thought you'd need a law degree and a stack of land use maps to go out in the local desert to enjoy nature. :--:

thanks Kate and Chumley,

Michael
So true. Which is why I grudgingly go ahead and buy the permit - and my utv is street legal. A lot easier than fighting bureaucracy.

Don't let it deter you from using this great desert, it is truly a beautiful place to be.

Happy trails.
Kate

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 15 2012 10:35 pm
by mazatzal
The furthest back "digging through memory cobwebs" I just about remember seeing STL signs in 1996 going to Newman Peak.

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Aug 16 2012 7:45 am
by beterarcher
mazatzal wrote:The furthest back "digging through memory cobwebs" I just about remember seeing STL signs in 1996 going to Newman Peak.
I guess they just didn't need the revenue at the time so they weren't enforcing it.

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 2:26 pm
by chumley
The one thing that doesn't seem to be clearly defined is when it is permissible to travel on STL to access non-STL land.

The Carney TH is on STL and requires a permit to park and hike (as the new/recently reposted signs clearly indicate). However, nearly all of Peralta Road is also on STL. The STL guidelines are extremely clear that a permit is required for ALL activity on STL, including vehicular travel. So why can you travel on STL on the Peralta Road to access the FS land at the other end without a permit? (Or maybe you can't?)

As Mazatzal noted above, the drive to Newman Peak is on a road that traverses STL and there are several gates with posted signs stating that a STL permit is required for travel. But all of the Newman Peak hike (including TH parking) is on free-access BLM land. Why can't I drive across STL without a permit to access BLM land just like I can drive across STL on Peralta Road to access FS land?

Technically I-10 and other more visible paved roads are on STL too, but obviously there is no permit requirement to travel on I-10! So which roads are you allowed to travel without a permit, and which are you not permitted to travel? As far as I know, this is undefined and not addressed in the FAQs on the STL website.

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 2:31 pm
by chumley
A good map that shows accurate land-ownership boundaries can be found here: http://www.azaccessmap.com/
The blue is State Trust Land and requires a permit.
STL Permits can be purchased by mail and in person.
Information can be found here: http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/na ... permit.htm

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 2:41 pm
by The_Eagle
@chumley
Good Info... Thanks for posting

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 2:49 pm
by tibber
Yep, I just purchased another permit; mine expires at the end of the month. It's not really that much money for a year and I figured why not be safe than sorry. The thing is to remember to put it up in the window.

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 3:08 pm
by BobP
tibber wrote: The thing is to remember to put it up in the window.
Do they look anything like a Taco Bell receipt?

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 3:12 pm
by chumley
Another point of interest is enforcement. The State Land Department does not have law-enforcement officers. Other LEOs are responsible for enforcing the STL permit. This can include AZ Game and Fish officers, State DPS, County Sheriff, and city police. It is less clear if State Park Rangers, or (Federal) Forest Service, National Park/Monument, or BLM LEOs have any jurisdiction.

Either way, I think they would do a lot better with compliance if they made it a little easier to obtain a permit. I don't think that $15/year is prohibitive for most people. Accepting credit cards is a start. Online system next? Pay boxes at popular sites such as Carney or the Florence Junction area...

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 3:17 pm
by chumley
@rlrjamy
So I recently went online to search exactly what they do look like. (Not that I would ever make my own or anything like that :A1: ) and the only image that came up in a web search was right here on HAZ. 8)
http://hikearizona.com/t2005/12/24/5929-888888_16.jpg
I don't see any chalupa stains on it. :)

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 3:48 pm
by Sun_Ray
About 5 years ago I hiked with a guy who used to manage one of the sections of SLT property. We discussed the issue of buy a permit or not. At that time he told me there were only 2 law enforcement agents assigned to manage the permit issue in the whole state. He said they were concerned with marijuana growers, off roaders, squatters....not hikers. He hiked on STL without a permit. I quit buying them after this discussion with him.

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 4:13 pm
by Al_HikesAZ
chumley wrote:@rlrjamy
So I recently went online to search exactly what they do look like. (Not that I would ever make my own or anything like that :A1: ) and the only image that came up in a web search was right here on HAZ. 8)
http://hikearizona.com/t2005/12/24/5929-888888_16.jpg
I don't see any chalupa stains on it. :)
That is the official permit. There is also a permit that you are supposed to hang from your mirror or post on your dash. I think they change the color every year.
Another big issue is that a lot of the Maricopa Trail is on State Trust Land. I am sure there will be a lot of hikers, bikers and equestrians using the trail - and many without permits. I remember when they had upped the annual fee to $50. A hunting permit allows you to be on STL to hunt (or scout (?)) and it was only $20 if I remember right. Now that the permit is back down to $15 I usually get one. I agree with Sun Ray - I think their biggest concerns are as mentioned - marijuana, squatters, off-road vehicles and illegal dumping.

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 4:27 pm
by Sredfield
if you are on the AZT where it crosses state trust land you do not need a permit. But the easement for the trail is only 15 ft wide, so technically you can hardly go off trail to visit a bush without being in violation.

Re: state TRUST land?!

Posted: Jan 09 2013 4:46 pm
by chumley
Al_HikesAZ wrote:Another big issue is that a lot of the Maricopa Trail is on State Trust Land. I am sure there will be a lot of hikers, bikers and equestrians using the trail - and many without permits.
The Arizona Trail has paid $200,000 to "purchase" the right-of-way for non-motorized travel on that trail, and Maricopa County paid $490,991 for the right-of-way on the Maricopa Trail.

Therefore, as Sredfield states in the post above regarding the AZT, the permit is also not required when hiking on the Maricopa trail (non-motorized use only).

See "Perpetual Rights of Way" section on this page: http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/na ... esToGo.htm