Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

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CannondaleKid
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Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Nov 04 2014 10:14 am

While I truly hate politics and politicians, this has got my goat...
:SB:
Anybody been keeping up with the scrub-land for Oak Flat land exchange between Resolution Copper and the US Government?
Namely: H.R. 687 - Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

There may be a Land Exchange taking place but I don't believe Conservation has anything to do with it. Maybe conservation of $$ for Resolution Copper, or more accurately, Rio Tinto and BHP Billiton, two of the largest mining companies in the world (English & Australian), who just happen to be partnering with an up-and-coming Chinese mining company.

Between the billions of gallons of water necessary for this type of mining along with the monstrous hole in the ground that will eventually form when the 7,000-foot deep 'cave' collapses in 25-30 years, I may be dead and gone by the (and possibly so will the legislators who vote for it) but I don't believe it's a good thing.

If interested, you can read the whole bill here: (all two pages of it so I would hope it is a summary)
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44416
Check out all the vague language in the document...

"Enacting the legislation could increase offsetting receipts..."
What? Vote on the unknown, sounds like a good idea? NOT!

"If the property sought by Resolution Copper is appraised at more than the appraised value of the property that the company offers for exchange, the company could donate additional land or make a cash payment to the United States."
COULD?! This should read MUST!

If the company’s property is appraised for more than the federal acreage, the difference in the value would be considered a donate to the federal government"
What?! So they can write more off their taxes?? Oh wait... And further what taxes will come to the US and Arizona out of it anyway? The employee's?

"In addition, after completion of the exchange, Resolution Copper would have to pay the federal government a portion of any future income earned on the former federal property if the company determines that the actual cumulative production of minerals located on that property exceeds the value of the estimated production used in the original appraisal process."
Again, shouldn't the US Government or an independent organization make this determination and NOT the company who will benefit if (when) they understate the value?

"Therefore, we cannot determine whether the company would make a payment or estimate the size of any such payment."
So much for having valid information to make an informed decision to vote for against this bill.

While Senator McCain visited the current mine and got the two-bit propaganda tour, what he needs to do is go look at the scrub-land that Resolution wants to trade for Oak Flat. From what I've seen of it it isn't fit for recreation anything like the Oak Flat area.

Oh well, if it gets passed then in 25-30 years maybe the monstrous hole in the ground that forms could be called the Gosar/Flake/McCain Meteor Crater... after all, we Arizonans won't know what hit us until too late.

:M2C:
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sandyfortner
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by sandyfortner » Apr 10 2015 8:00 am

Yes, unfortunately, this is a done deal. No words can express..... No new thoughts can be shared....... When will the destruction end!
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blisterfree
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by blisterfree » Apr 11 2015 1:09 pm

We need to keep in mind that the Tonto National Forest employees are now married to Rio Tonto, I mean Tinto, under Sharia Law. Of course there won't be any pushback from those quarters, as that would be punishable by death. I would suggest that we're looking in the wrong place and drawing the wrong conclusions about the inevitability of the tailings mountain west of Superior. Instead, look to the courts. Look at what just happened to Hudbay and Rosemont, another mega-billion mining colossus aided and abetted by USFS and the Mining Act of 1872. Far from being an impending inevitability, that project has been held up for years by a host of environmental issues for which the final arbiter is not necessarily the tired doormat of USFS. Even in the Cro-Magnon state of Arizona, Hudbay is now dealing with the major setback of having just lost their state air quality permit in a court decision that - regardless of whether it's ultimately overturned - will surely help to set precedence at the federal level permitting process, which was already unfavorable toward this project.

A free-standing 500 foot tall tailings mountain opposite the world-renowned Boyce Thompson Arboretum, competing with Picketpost Mountain in stature, visible from all four sides, creating significant air pollution concerns, and inevitably affecting water quality in the Queen Creek watershed, would be a major boondoggle and create massive public outrage. They'll never get away with it in the court of public opinion, which of course is just one building over from the court of legal proceeding.

No tailings dump, no mine. Every Goliath has a weak spot. This is his.

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by blisterfree » Apr 11 2015 6:52 pm

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/apache ... 5748035921

Wendsler Nosie is a smart dude, articulate, right on message. The PR is spotless and cuts right through. As far as I'm concerned, the San Carlos have already won it in the court of public opinion. They are the adults in the room.

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Sredfield » Apr 12 2015 5:34 pm

@blisterfree
Amen! Never quit, go down swinging!
It occurs to me that Senator McCain, who is running again, needs some "green" on his side. One way to do that is, now that he played such a strong role in allowing the mine, is to see that it is done responsibly. And convincing the mine to put the tailings in the holes already on the other side of the mountain is something he can do. I sent a letter suggesting as much, maybe if he hears it a few more times . . . .
Shawn
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by azbackpackr » Apr 14 2015 2:12 pm

:(
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by rwstorm » Apr 16 2015 8:08 am

Seen today...

Statement of Roger Featherstone at Rio Tinto AGM 4-16-15
Here is the statement of the Arizona Mining Reform Coalition at this morning's Rio Tinto Annual General Meeting in London:

http://www.azminingreform.org/content/s ... gm-4-16-15
Onward into oblivion!

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Apr 16 2015 12:57 pm

I fully agree with the statement and would be overjoyed if it made any difference. But, sadly, the horse is already out of the barn.
:(
So much money has already been invested I seriously doubt anyone in Rio Tinto management will suddenly gain a conscience at the cost of profits, nor will they lose any sleep over continuing on the path they are on. So what if they claim to have integrity...
Rio Tinto: Delivering results by keeping our promises
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blisterfree
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by blisterfree » Apr 21 2015 10:57 pm

Meanwhile over at Hudbay they're ordering up another round of exploratory drilling. Apparently some of these test wells are angled sharply toward the west, into the opposite side of the Santa Ritas from the proposed mine site. While this sounds sinister, one likely explanation seems to be that the Rosemont site, as purchased, doesn't contain nearly as much in the way of copper reserves as they were led to believe. This is the nature of hard rock mining - it's a speculative business. As Randy Seragglio with the Center for Biological Diversity recently pointed out, 9 out of 10 times you might lose your shirt, but on that 10th mine you win shirts for the rest of your life. The question in our case is which mine. Will it be the one that causes the most environmental controversy and attendant legal wrangling? I wouldn't necessarily bet on it. Everything seems inevitable until you realize that's how the game is played.

Other than the likely unrelenting legal and media onslaught that Rio Tinto will face in the coming years - potentially very unlike anything they've ever confronted before - there's this very tenuous push-pull between the price of copper (currently taking a likely protracted tumble) and the upfront time and cost to bring the ore body into production (which in the case of Oak Flat is apparently huge). Before that happens, and certainly long before Oak Flat is turned into a hellish crater of biblical proportions, outrage will have had sufficient time to transform into action. If the mine happens at all, it won't be merely to spite the opponents but because a world of present uncertainties ultimately coalesce around that outcome, and that permitted activities - the final game plan - makes full economic sense. And in that far-off world where the mine finally reaches senescence we have, again, the interim time in which the radical prospect of Oak Flat being wiped off the map is, in due course, blunted by advocacy, litigation, even the light of reason. Compromise! Over the long haul, in this extremely controversial case above all others, only someone willing to lose their shirt would bet against it.

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by nonot » Apr 22 2015 8:02 pm

I find it interesting the main arguments put forth recently concern the unsightly piles of tailings. Hasn't anyone driven through Miami/Globe?

Does anyone know if they negotiated access rights for hiking/climbing to the Devil's Canyon area like was done with the mine on the way to Haunted Canyon?
http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php

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Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by blisterfree » Apr 22 2015 9:45 pm

nonot wrote:Hasn't anyone driven through Miami/Globe?
Straight through it. I think the point is that Superior isn't Miami / Globe and doesn't need to be, provided the mining company does the right thing.

Miami / Globe also isn't Superior. It doesn't have the Arizona Trail or the Boyce-Thompson Arboretum, which would be ruined by the proposed tailings pile across the street. The tailings location is a major line of attack simply because it's attackable, too.

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Bradshaws » Jun 18 2015 3:59 pm

I heard this report on the way home from work. I found it interesting so...just a little more info for who ever wants it ;)


http://kjzz.org/content/154230/mining-l ... d-congress
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by chumley » Jun 18 2015 6:00 pm

Political posturing and nothing more. Refresh your civics lesson and you'll understand this has no way to even get out of committee. Why news reporters don't understand that or ask questions about it before reporting the story I'll never know.
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by blisterfree » Jun 19 2015 6:42 pm

You make it sound like a bad thing, Chumley, like it's a distraction from some other, more fruitful tactic that should be employed instead. It's a way of raising awareness of the issue and making a moral case for *some* measure of relief, if nothing else.

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Bradshaws » Jun 19 2015 9:43 pm

With the kind of money they are talking about, I have no doubt that this mining operation will happen :( But.... What I found encouraging is the fact that if and that's a BIG "IF" everything goes the way that the mining company wants it to, mining wouldn't start for 10 years ( 2026 ) :D In the unstable political atmosphere we have today ANYTHING is possible in ten years! Who's to say what will happen in a decade :-k Also, if they were to mine, it has been said that this is the largest copper deposit on earth. Who's to say how long they will mine underground before disturbing anything at ground level. And who's to say that in the next 20, 30 or even 40 years while they're mining that they won't come up with a better form of mine reclamation that excludes imploding all of their shafts and destroying miles of wilderness :-s

Call me a fool but I think that there can still be some sort of compromise found 8-[ I'm not a fan of mining. I think that many of the jobs and products could be substituted by recycling but I understand the need for minig. WE ALL USE COPPER! It definitely has me thinking :-k
Last edited by Bradshaws on Jun 20 2015 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chumley
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by chumley » Jun 19 2015 11:35 pm

blisterfree wrote:You make it sound like a bad thing, Chumley, like it's a distraction from some other, more fruitful tactic that should be employed instead. It's a way of raising awareness of the issue and making a moral case for *some* measure of relief, if nothing else.
And you make it sound like it's not! :lol:

It is a distraction from other more important things. Politicians whoring themselves to public perception pure and simple! No hope or intent to actually accomplish what they are putting their name on. Just PR for the low-information voter.

The bill introduced by Rep. Grijalva is sponsored by 14 other representatives. SEVEN of those actually voted FOR the bill (aka -- these people already voted to destroy Oak Flat). So that's either a world-class flip flop, or one of those classic US Government "we can read it after we vote for it" scenarios! Either way, I'd hardly put it in any kind of category that includes moral anything. It's nothing more than a CYA for the next election cycle. :M2C:

Of the 15 sponsors, only 5 actually sit on the committee that is sponsoring it. That means that there are 39 members on the same committee that have not signed on (39/44 = 89%). Thirteen are in the same party -- and also have not signed on. Even if all sign on, there are 26 members in the majority party. Even if some of them sign on, it still isn't enough to get out of the committee.

So, YES, it is a colossal waste of time. It is political posturing. And half of those doing it are reversing what they ALREADY VOTED FOR! Now if you think they are raising a moral case or raising awareness and not looking out for their own ass next election, that's your prerogative. But sadly, that's not the way I see it.
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by azbackpackr » Jun 20 2015 5:31 am

Well, I see both points of view. But, sadly for us, and for Oak Flat, Chums's analysis is probably spot on.
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by friendofThundergod » Feb 08 2016 1:05 pm

A Rogue Congress and the Oak Flat Travesty
http://www.hcn.org/issues/48.2/how-a-hu ... was-passed

So you are saying there is a chance???

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chumley
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by chumley » Feb 08 2016 1:56 pm

friendofThundergod wrote:So you are saying there is a chance???
There's always a chance! There are now 40 co-sponsors. But it still doesn't have the votes to get out of committee. So it's still in the same place it was last summer.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-con ... bill/2811/
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by PrestonSands » Mar 21 2017 8:23 am

For what it's worth...

Resolution Copper Project

Tonto National Forest is holding public workshops this week on the Resolution Copper Project, which would destroy 7,000 acres of public land, including Oak Flat, in order to build a mine.

***From what I've heard from an insider, there is a proposed tailings (mine waste/overburden) dump 5 miles northwest of Oak Flat. Something nice to look at on adventures in the northeastern Superstitions.***

Resolution Copper Mine Workshops
Tuesday, March 21
5-8 p.m.
Superior High School
100 Mary Dr., Superior

Wednesday, March 22
5-8 p.m.
Southwest Regional Library
775 N. Greenfield Rd., Gilbert

These workshops are part of a public process to prepare an environmental impact statement to evaluate the potential effects of the proposed underground mine at Oak Flat.
Last edited by PrestonSands on Mar 22 2017 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Mar 21 2017 11:25 am

PrestonSands wrote:From what I've heard from an insider, there is a proposed tailings (mine waste/overburden) dump 5 miles northwest of Oak Flat.
It is proposed to be east of FR 172, north of Hewitt Road & west of AZT #18.

So imagine 20-25 years from now looking from Montana Mountain toward Picketpost and seeing a 500 foot 'mountain' in between. That's not only the plan but the Forest Service has already been looking into all the things they will need to do/get done before that happens... like what parts of the area to close to off-road use and when.

Roughly in this area: https://hikearizona.com/map.php?MY=27455&M=1
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