Observations and issues of the Juniper fire

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dude
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Observations and issues of the Juniper fire

Post by dude » Jun 14 2016 12:35 pm

Related to / or following : Juniper Fire closure-Sierra Ancha forum
[ photoset ]

First on 5/23/16 the supposed 6th day of the fire inciweb showed ignition near head of Cold water canyon, then the 24th moved it north to east edge of juniper flats. The later did coincide with the name and was a more plausible lighting strike area than under a cliff as the first position. Though such an open area just 2 miles and 1100 feet below a fire tower. What about their very accurate satellite fire detection?

Questions were asked of why it was not seen earlier? FS said that the mountain was in the way..(What mt?) Concord tower saw it first as they had a better angle..Concord is 23 miles north, slightly east. Angle is better if a fire was below the rim of juniper flats but not passable for head of Cold water.

5/26/16 a poor map dated 5/24/16 is added to inciweb incident report with a red X. Legend says fire origin: lightning start may 17 2016. The X and shown burn area indicate it started on Mc Fadden Horse mt. at the the top of the front leg of the horse.

The map showed trail 146 crossing a small burn area on the shoulder. This is also were the cairned trail used by mules and lodgers dragged timber down the gentle descent to the north between the horses legs to juniper flat. The high ground of the horse is fairly table like thou rolling and had large pines spaced with grass in places like were the fires origin is marked.

http://www.azcentral.c...

“The fire is burning in rough terrain too risky to send firefighters in. If they were to get injured, it would be difficult to get them out — a situation no one wants to find themselves in.” “There isn’t a place for a helicopter or to bring in necessary tools," Kenton said. "The terrain makes walking tough, let alone walking with fire packs and tools.”}
I have a picture of about a hundred yard clearing just south of the wilderness line at the edge of the 5/24/16 Public information map burn. And apparently the trail the FS is paid to manage is not fit for hot shots either.

“The roads that run around the fire provide a perimeter and natural breaks, while everything inside is burning slow and taking its natural course.” Says it's fully Contained, slow burning too.

Inciweb 5/23/16 “The Juniper Fire is not a prescribed burn. This wildfire will be managed where needed and allowed to function as nature intended. This means it does not have a planned end date.”
Same report bullet point “ensuring timely and accurate information releases.”

National Interagency Coordination Center Incident Management Situation Report Wednesday, June 8, 2016
incident -- unit -- Acres -- chge - % - Ctn/comp - Est --total -- chge -- Crw - eng - heli - strc lost - ctd -- orgin
Juniper - AZ-TNF - 28,504-2,444 - 20 --- Comp --- 7/15 - 558 ---- 42 ---- 11--- 23-- 7 --- 0 ------ 6.8M -- FS

“Juniper, Tonto NF. IMT 2 (Bales). Ten miles south of Young, AZ. Timber and chaparral. Active fire behavior with uphill runs and flanking. Residences threatened. Area closures in effect. “

Chart est completion 7/15.. Planing more than a month more at that point of the “managed” contained “wildfire” they want to burn. At least five claims that all exclude the legal definition of a Wildfire.

FS told many they intended to burn as much as 3.6 times as they have. What/were is their intended casualty area? They continue to claim it's not contained, “Fire will continue to slowly creep on the Eastern side of the incident towards Cherry Creek.” Both the 11-12 I studied that area using some fairly good optics, studied a few hundred high resolution pictures also.. Saw no one! Saw no fire or smoke on that side.

The FS obviously still wants to burn more and had planed to burn much more.
Why is any one tolerant of any part of this?

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Re: Observations and issues of the Juniper fire

Post by JasonCleghorn » Jun 14 2016 1:06 pm

I'm not trying to put you on blast but are you a trained forester, wildlife scientist, ecologist, biologist, etc. anything related to the science of fires? Because sometimes in life, to keep from going crazy, we have to hope/believe/think that there may just be people put in positions based on merit, scientific training, wisdom, experience, etc.

Now I don't doubt that some of their decisions are financially based. I mean that would be human(organizational) nature. But generally, to even work for USFS I'd imagine you have to love nature, like trees, etc. Every USFS employee that I have ever met are borderline tree huggers, etc. I can say that, because I am one of them. So these people are just going to wantonly start burning everything in sight? That dog won't hunt as we'd say back in the South.

There's probably your version, the FS' version, and the truth is probably somewhere if not in the middle but closer to one of you two's versions.
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Re: Observations and issues of the Juniper fire

Post by dude » Jun 15 2016 2:47 pm

the FS' version, and the truth
I respect readers to grasp that you responded to Forest Service (FS) Quotes, and their documents (all saved). And that the reader understands this means this is exactly what the source cited said or states.

Thus claiming “the FS' version, and the truth” correctly represents that “That dog won't hunt” (Quotes “” refer to what you wrote in this case).

What the dog (the FS) does do is lie, incessantly misleading and contradicting reality and their own claims, statements, documents, science, and actions validity.

Rather like your characterization of the FS.

FYI: They did "wantonly" burn everything in sight(sickening part is it's far from a "start"), and then bragged about it in the media after the fact. See noted picture set, FS progression map dates miles of moon scape days prior to the “5 reasons” article stating: The wildfire has since scorched 22,962 acres, with a projected footprint of 80,000 acres, and fire officials couldn’t be more pleased.
“Right now, it’s behaving exactly how we want it to,” U.S. Forest Service spokeswoman Gabrielle Kenton said.

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Re: Observations and issues of the Juniper fire

Post by dude » Jun 15 2016 3:09 pm

Seeing the towering eruption of smoke the evening of May forth I drove to Malicious Gap road and 288 were 288 south was blocked. It was dark when I arrived to see hundreds of fires spread 100 degrees wide to the east for miles. To the south east the table of juniper flats had a wall of red glowing smoke erupting from beyond. They both burned -all- night long. Did not see or hear any planes or helicopter all night long and only One service truck passed in the early light.

Surreal and unrecognizable till the red sun came through the smoke and a slight breeze moved the erupting wall enough to see the scorched tower on the north end of Horse McFadden.

Again obviously fire does not spread or erupts that way on a still evening across miles in separated areas. Clearly more aerial ignition destroying our lands and killing it's inhabitants!

FS had escalated the contrived “beneficial” “managed” “wildfire” to a level 2 fire just prior. Fire guys were angry and said “the land will suffer even more..” “A few of the chiefs here for the fire will make six figures from this fire alone..”

http://hikearizona.com/photoset.php?ID=40815&start=0
Spalled rocks even in areas of light vegetation, crisp strait burn edges. Even through young healthy and spaced Manzanita with no dead wood burnt down the middle, charred sticks ½ the bush the other half green and century plants too. Cliff faces above open scree slopes covered with soot. Isolated bushes and trees hundreds of feet from propagating foliage burnt in strait lines over cliffs and down canyons.

Accelerant was used on the Sierra Ancha wilderness. Major stands of trees and Archeo sites were targeted, and brush between targets remain. The east side of Cherry creek above devils is largely moon scape to the rim. That this is and was orchestrated by the USFS is morally obscene well beyond just felonious.

Even the light steady rain of Saturday night required machinery to clear areas of 288 that previously were fine throughout monsoons. The FS illegally drew the wilderness line covering 203 and irreverent of wilderness laws it has remained. They stopped road work on it attempting to eventuality end the road north of Ellison’s long ago.

The FS will close the ruins, and even if they reopen upper 203 the monsoons will close it. Not much will grow on the sterilized dirt for years. The horrific runoff and erosion will be the FS excuse to never reopen 203. Likewise the trails and routs will be obliterated. Not that even the people that have loved the area will want more than a morbid look at it again.

Most every thing down stream will be negatively impacted. PH shift will kill as well as the massive sediment load. The “habitat” and “ecosystem” improvement must be for mud creatures in Roosevelt lake.

The progression map claims Pueblo's north side burnt 6/6/16 yet word was out well before that it had been nuked. That among many other issues show the progression map is contrived too.

The north side of Pueblo was strafed as well as all ruins we could see. Wood beams likely sustained substantial damage, more water mud and rocks will fall on the ruins than ever before. No doubt the forest will seek funding for their own environmental and historical terrorism.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A)
involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i)
to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii)
to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii)
to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C)
occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

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Re: Observations and issues of the Juniper fire

Post by JasonCleghorn » Jun 15 2016 5:38 pm

What do you hope to achieve from this? What should we do? What are your solutions?

Do you work for the FS but are disgruntled?

Look, we all hate these fires. I wish we had an army of volunteers that could go out and trim underbrush 24/7 etc. but we don't.

If you own property out there that was affected, file a lawsuit and move forward. There are tons of things in life to be upset about. While this is one of them, how much control do we have over it? Should all the FS personnel just be rounded up and sent off to jail?
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Re: Observations and issues of the Juniper fire

Post by Nighthiker » Jun 15 2016 8:52 pm

Lot of bears in the area, have only heard of one encounter of a cub with one of the firefighters.
jk

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Re: Observations and issues of the Juniper fire

Post by dude » Jun 16 2016 3:49 pm

JasonCleghorn wrote:What do you hope to achieve from this?
Educate to effect change.
Should all the FS personnel just be rounded up and sent off to jail?
Top 4% mite be enough.

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