Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Moderator: HAZ - Moderators

Linked Descriptions none
Linked Areas none
User avatar
Thoreau
Gadget Kokopelli
Posts: 255
Joined: Mar 10 2008 12:19 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Thoreau » Dec 19 2009 8:11 pm

I had an 'interesting' experience today while hiking Thompson Peak that I think illustrates at least one reason why leash laws/rules exist.

Let me start out by saying that if something as simple as this got my heart racing the way it did, I can't even imagine what it would be like to be dealing with a human instead of a dog (and Harold Fish had to deal with BOTH)...

Anywho, I was out on the trail to Thompson Peak today. Great hike (holy s&&& it was steep towards the end!) and all went well. Until about a mile or two from the end on my way back out.

I was coming up a hill and looked up to see a pretty good sized dog at the top. I had enough time to notice that it had tags hanging from a collar, so was able to immediately rule out stray and wild animal, which almost set me at ease. Unfortunately, the dog (looked to be a doberman mix of some type) noticed me and began growling/barking. No owner in sight. A few seconds later the dog made some false charges in my direction at which point my hand went to my H&K. JUST as it was about to come out of the holster, the owner appeared at the top of the hill on a mountain bike and managed to get the dog back under voice control and to back off (took 2-3 tries to get the dogs obedience.)

Owner apologized immediately and all was well, but that's probably because he never noticed I was carrying.

In that short time, I was amazed at how something so minor could pump that much adrenaline into the bloodstream. I've never even been charged at by a dog before in my life, but even while armed it was an experience to remember.

Why the hell do some dog owners think it's okay for them to let their dogs off leash in public places? I mean, it's not like every hiking trail, preserve, forest, etc. doesn't have signs up reminding people that dogs must always be on a leash. That's as much for the protection of other people as the dog/owner. That poor dog, through NO fault of its own, was only about 1-2 seconds away from being introduced to a .40 (or 14). All because some owner can't follow simple, basic rules.

For added fun, all that dog's barking got the attention of a nearby pack of coyotes who were then singing away for the remainder of my hike out. As if native wildlife isn't reason enough for a caring dog owner to keep the dog under control at all times...

User avatar
BobP
Cairn Reaper
Posts: 1599
Joined: Feb 26 2008 3:43 pm
City, State: Scottsdale, AZ

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by BobP » Feb 15 2010 8:43 am

dysfunction wrote:Let the dog on the trail, the owner should stay home
:y: :y: :y: :sl:
http://www.blindmotivation.com
http://www.seeitourway.org
Always pronounce Egeszsegedre properly......
If you like this triplog you must be a friend of BrunoP

User avatar
azbackpackr
River Paddler
Posts: 8026
Joined: Jan 21 2006 6:46 am
City, State: Flagstaff, Arizona

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by azbackpackr » Feb 15 2010 3:42 pm

Ugh. Any thoughts I had about wintering in or moving back to Tucson are now quelled. I will stick with wintering in Yuma, not Tucson. At least there are no other hikers out (except on Telegraph Hill) around Yuma, because there are almost no trails! You either walk up a canyon or you bag a peak.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 15 2010 4:23 pm

azbackpackr wrote:Ugh. Any thoughts I had about wintering in or moving back to Tucson are now quelled. I will stick with wintering in Yuma, not Tucson. At least there are no other hikers out (except on Telegraph Hill) around Yuma, because there are almost no trails! You either walk up a canyon or you bag a peak.
The hikers aren't the problem around here; it's the other bipeds out on the trail that fall into another category...
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
dysfunction
HAZopelli
Posts: 599
Joined: Dec 20 2008 7:38 pm
City, State: Tucson, AZ

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by dysfunction » Feb 15 2010 6:24 pm

Jeff MacE wrote:
azbackpackr wrote:Ugh. Any thoughts I had about wintering in or moving back to Tucson are now quelled. I will stick with wintering in Yuma, not Tucson. At least there are no other hikers out (except on Telegraph Hill) around Yuma, because there are almost no trails! You either walk up a canyon or you bag a peak.
The hikers aren't the problem around here; it's the other bipeds out on the trail that fall into another category...

and they're gone long before I'm gettin' warmed up thankfully.


Plus, I totally love being able to decide last minute to go mtb and have miles and miles of trails at my disposal... to then run into a pro team out training.
mike

"Solvitur ambulando" or maybe by brewers.

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 16 2010 9:21 am

Gain more than about 1,000' of altitude and the yahoo herd thins or disappears entirely. It usually isn't even on ascent when I'm politely weaving my way through them that I get annoyed, it's when I'm tired and on my way down that they bug me the most...
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
pencak
Volunteer Kokopelli
Posts: 95
Joined: Jan 08 2010 9:57 pm
City, State: Queen Creek, AZ

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by pencak » Feb 18 2010 9:56 pm

Dogs view us as other dogs. They size you up to see where you are in relation to the pack. They listen to their owners because they recognize them as the dominant dog in their little pack. They're also territorial and very sensitive to emotion. That's why it's such a crap shoot when they get out in an unfamiliar place. They also have emotional personalities which make some just more disagreeable than others. So... if the dog is actually more dominant than the supposed 'master' and/or senses fear in their master they go territorial. Hence, the leash laws. Meeting the dog alone, you might be perfectly fine. It smells no fear in you and sizes you up. Perhaps you get along. That turns into impossible when the owner is nearby and fearful.

Dogs freaking out on horses is mostly due to their unfamiliarity with them. Could you imagine what the dog thinks, "Ahhhh... this is the biggest f$*&#@! dog I've ever seen!" They may even be well behaved and trained but this shock is something so traumatic that it's hard to calm them down. Can't blame them but as a dog owner, I'd have a leash just to control them in that event.

As for meeting them alone like the original post...
Remember, we're higher on the food chain for a reason. Pick up a rock and throw it at them. Gather more rocks and move on them while firing. This is somehow a universal sign to all canines everywhere to hightail it out of there. In Latin America, simply the act of reaching down for a rock sends them running at full speed. Dogs size you up and smell fear, moving away seems to draw them. Throwing rocks at them aggressively really changes their mind.

It bothers me deeply when I see dogs out of hand growling and intimidating women, children, etc. When someone is mauled by a dog when they are little (or even as an adult) they are psychologically scared deeply for life. This intense fear comes to the surface and the dog feeds off of that. It's like an assault all over again for the victim, even if the dog didn't get close to them. The mindless owners usually offer a, "I'm sorry, he's usually well behaved" or "What's your problem, he won't bite" kind of response to the person who is re-traumatized by a dog owner who has no clue as to the damage they just caused. And yes, they are responsible.

Bad dogs are like people and they get a rush off of the fear they create in their victims.

I won't tell you what I think about when I see a dog like that but if you look in their eyes intently and think certain thoughts, they go ballistic with fear and bark insanely. At that point, if they have a way of escape and you reach down for a rock, they usually take it.
Pencak aka Larry Rudd
"I think I'm a verb"
Buckmaster Fuller

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 19 2010 8:52 pm

Tucson Hikers with Dogs Take Warning!!
I'm baaaack!! Today I lit up three different groups of yahoos with dogs in Pima Canyon. Including one that was off-leash and the whose tube-steak gypsy owner tried to argue with me after admitting he knew the dog shouldn't be in there. Rules are rules. Until they change, please STOP with the dogs in the Pusch Ridge Wilderness nonsense that seems to be an epidemic, of late. Please spread to work to other dog-owning hikers who will actually obey the rules, as well. Otherwise, hope like heck you don't run into me out there!!

...Oh, and if you're a tough guy reading this thinking: "I'll kick his XYZ" :sl: You just have to ask yourself one question...Did you see my HAZ name? Well, did ya' PUNK?! :sl:
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
azbackpackr
River Paddler
Posts: 8026
Joined: Jan 21 2006 6:46 am
City, State: Flagstaff, Arizona

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by azbackpackr » Feb 20 2010 4:42 am

So, Jeff, is there nothing you can do as far as working with law enforcement? For example, could they park a sheriff there, or even a sheriff volunteer (do you guys have those?) at the trailhead even for an hour during the busiest time? The parking lot, as I recall, is owned by the county. Can the parks dept. put up more signs, with a list of cost of violations? (Or are the signs on FS property only?) Can the county parks, PCSD and FS be encouraged to work together on this issue? Can the FS law enforcement be encouraged to spend even an hour a week parked there? (Figure out the busiest dog walking time, let them know when that would be.)
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

User avatar
MtnBart01
Chipita Whirlybird
Posts: 473
Joined: Aug 23 2005 9:26 am
City, State: Chipita Park, Co

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by MtnBart01 » Feb 20 2010 8:25 am

Dirty Poochie Loving Harry :scared: - Do you really think the people and dogs you're threatening in the Tuscon area are HAZ members and reading this thread? I hike with my dog regularly. I understand rules are rules and wouldn't think of taking my dog on hikes where dogs are not allowed, and it seems like this is your major irritation. However, I'm not sure after reading this entire thread wether you are joking or for real (not knowing you personally). It seems like you're so fired up about dogs and being the enforcer I'm not sure you could enjoy a hike and the outdoors and would probably be miserable if you didn't run into some dogs and some owners to "light up". We reap what we sow and if you walk around with that big of a chip every dog is going to want a piece of you and every person you run into is going to think your an "XYZ" as you put it. :?
Last edited by MtnBart01 on Feb 20 2010 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
LET IT SNOW! Let it SNOW! Let it Snow!

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 20 2010 10:22 am

Ive called and called. I spoke with the PCSD parks enforcement unit sergeant a month or so back and he says it's all he can do to stay on top of the drunken debauchery associated with quads and dirtbikes. I spoke with the Coronado District Ranger last year and all he could say was that he wished he had the manpower to do anything about it and to call PCSD or PC Parks & Rec...
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 20 2010 10:24 am

bart01 wrote:Dirty Poochie Loving Harry :scared: - Do you really think the people and dogs you're threatening in the Tuscon area are HAZ members and reading this thread? I hike with my dog regularly. I understand rules are rules and wouldn't think of taking my dog on hikes where dogs are not allowed, and it seems like this is your major irritation. However, I'm not sure after reading this entire thread wether you are joking or for real (not knowing you personally). It seems like you're so fired up about dogs and being the enforcer I'm not sure you could enjoy a hike and the outdoors and would probably be miserable if you didn't run into some dogs and some owners to "light up". We reap what we sow and if you walk around with that big of a chip every dog is going to want a piece of you and every person you run into is going to think your an "XYZ" as you put it. :?
I'm half joking about all of this...or am I? Let me worry about my enjoyment level. Maybe I get a sick pleasure out of rousting people who break the rules? Who knows? :D

I hope some dog wants a piece of me. That's how the education of his or her owner will start for that particular dog.
Last edited by Jeffshadows on Feb 20 2010 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 20 2010 10:28 am

Oh, one other thing...Yes, in fact; some of the people I've run into with dogs inside the wilderness boundary at Saguaro have told me that they regularly visit HAZ after I told them about the site and recommended they use it as a resource for finding dog-friendly trails. That's the key: dog-friendly trails.
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
Hiker Girl
Volunteer Kokopelli
Posts: 14
Joined: Jan 22 2010 11:03 am
City, State: Mesa, AZ

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Hiker Girl » Feb 20 2010 10:35 am

Out of curiosity, are service dogs allowed on the trails?
"Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
--Anonymous

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 20 2010 11:11 am

Hiker Girl wrote:Out of curiosity, are service dogs allowed on the trails?
That's a really great question; I have no idea, in truth. It might depend on the regulations by wilderness area, etc...
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
MtnBart01
Chipita Whirlybird
Posts: 473
Joined: Aug 23 2005 9:26 am
City, State: Chipita Park, Co

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by MtnBart01 » Feb 20 2010 1:37 pm

In response to Jeff MacE: :) Thanks for the clarification. :) You play your character well my fellow hiker. I'm not at all worried about your enjoyment level I'm more concerned about mine. Let me give you an example. I recently went to do a hike from a book on dog friendly hikes. I cross referenced it with HAZ and in fact there was an alternate summit write up for this place that also said it was dog friendly. I got to the parking lot which was filled and went to the alternate parking. As I got out with my dog I saw a large "No Dogs" sign. Fair enough I went to another hike on my list I knew was dog friendly. I came back on another day and did this hike along with the loop hike next to it. Those routes bypass the area where the "No dogs Allowed" sign was posted. So clearly never hiking this area had I parked in the place where it said to park I would not have known. Now I suspect that the people with whom your running into clearly know there is no dogs allowed and I can understand where your coming from and of course you need to live up to your new nickname :sl:, but in this situation I could have easily showed up in a no dogs area and honestly not known dogs were not allowed. I pm'd Joe who corrected the write up and the dogs or no dogs symbol at the top. I'm just saying that if some one were to educate me on this fact I would welcome it thank them and leave, but if I were to be "lit up" as you call it my reaction would be totally different. Even after running into two mountain lions near Devil's Chasm in the Sierra Anchas and black bear in the boundary waters canoeing I have never considered arming myself to hike and camp. I suppose it's not the wildlife I have to worry about in this day and age. I'll see you when your hiking in my neck of the woods. I'll be the one with the vibram fivefingers and the harmless fuzzy 20lb. black puppy that stops steps aside and sits while you pass or trail runs past you. Either way your going have to ask yourself one question, "Do I feel lucky today punk? :sl: :sl: :sl: :y: "
LET IT SNOW! Let it SNOW! Let it Snow!

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 20 2010 2:10 pm

I think there are a lot more places to take a dog out with you in Phoenix anyway, are there not?
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
azbackpackr
River Paddler
Posts: 8026
Joined: Jan 21 2006 6:46 am
City, State: Flagstaff, Arizona

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by azbackpackr » Feb 20 2010 2:56 pm

The real problem is that there are too many people in too small an area, in both Phoenix and Tucson.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

User avatar
MtnBart01
Chipita Whirlybird
Posts: 473
Joined: Aug 23 2005 9:26 am
City, State: Chipita Park, Co

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by MtnBart01 » Feb 20 2010 3:23 pm

There are very few places that don't allow dogs. Reservation land ie. Canyon de Chelly and Navajo National Monument Ie. Keet Seel, Piestewa Peak, Chiricahua National Monument. Piestewa Peak being the only hike locally that I have come across not allowing dogs. Like previous people have said it is more of an owner issue than the dog who just follows/ or in most cases leads his/her pack of humans. I have even found hikes that are specifically designated as offleash hikes, but there again most people's idea of voice control is different than mine so I would be leary not of my dog but other people's dogs on these trails.
LET IT SNOW! Let it SNOW! Let it Snow!

User avatar
Jeffshadows
Dirty Pooch Harry
Posts: 2593
Joined: Jan 30 2008 8:46 am
City, State: Old Pueblo

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by Jeffshadows » Feb 20 2010 4:01 pm

Yea, it's a lot better for dog folks up there. Most of the lower elevation stuff around Tucson is in a no-dog Wilderness zone...
AD-AVGVSTA-PER-ANGVSTA

User avatar
azbackpackr
River Paddler
Posts: 8026
Joined: Jan 21 2006 6:46 am
City, State: Flagstaff, Arizona

Re: Dogs on the trail... sans leash...

Post by azbackpackr » Feb 20 2010 5:08 pm

That reminds me of something I witnessed at Havasupai several years ago. A young woman tourist had brought her beautiful Golden Retriever along on her adventure there. Bringing your dog is apparently allowed there, or it was at the time. Her dog was attacked by reservation dogs and its back was broken somehow, so that it could no longer move its back legs. The poor gal was absolutely frantic and ran to the village to get the nurse practitioner, who came down to the falls in an ATV and took the dog to the village heliport, since it had to be flown out. I never heard the end of the story, but wonder if the dog had to be put down, since it could not walk.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

Post Reply

Return to “Dogs”




cron