HikeArizona.COM

chumley wrote:While it is limited to roads that appear on the "Map" layer of Route Manager

The Eagle wrote:whipper snapper

ME Jan 12
to Product.Support

Thank you for the continued bad news about the product. The other 450 I returned, like my Etrex, the chip set seemed to have broke (I don't really know about the 450 because the service dept just sent me a refurbished one and didn't say what was wrong with the other). I originally got the new 450 to replace the Etrex rather than getting the Etrex repaired.

As to your discussion regarding the somewhat accurate 450, I find it odd that the product I paid so much for cannot be as accurate as the HAZTraks app I use on my phone. I also used Map my Hike and it showed accurate miles. So I'm not sure I buy your discussion about the lack of accuracy on the 450 due to all of the factors you suggested. If that were so, in my mind, all GPS devices would be off by a certain amount of miles when looking at the screen but that is simply not the case. May I ask, are all of your consumer GPS products inaccurate as to the mileage showing on the screen? Does your competitor have the same problem?

And last I have to wonder, why do I own your product? I can use it to see where I am and use the tracking function but I would always worry about the mileage. If all of your products show inaccurate mileage on their screen, which I find hard to believe, I am surprised you still have a market. Actually, I could take a poll on hikearizona.com to see who gets accurate mileage on their Garmin gps screen vs those that don't; that would be interesting.

I think there is something wrong with your product or at least the 450. I am so disappointed that I wasted my time, money and energy and wonder if I should buy your product again. Do any of them keep accurate mileage on the screen? Or do I have to upgrade to get accurate mileage on the screen?

My brother told me a lot about what you said regarding GPS tracking and even in the end when I said "but my apps keep track of accurate mileage", that gave him pause. He then thot maybe it's a software issue. Anyway, thank you for your advice but I do wish you would share this issue with the powers that be at GPS International. And last, if you were me & wanted a GPS product that showed accurate mileage, would you buy your product and if so, which one?

Angela

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 9:32 AM, <Product.Support@garmin.com> wrote:
Dear ME,

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

I hope you had a happy holidays as well. I apologize but I may need to give bad news in the new year. I really think the device is working as intended. We have already exchanged it once for the same issue and I believe the device is tacking on extra distance due to both GPS drift while sitting still and just the general inaccuracy of consumer grade GPS devices. Uploading after the fact will always improve the track accuracy because of the filtering that is done by those programs that is not done by the GPS. Again I sincerely apologize for any confusion I have provided information on the GPS drift and the devices general accuracy below. What you are seeing with the distance being more inaccurate the farther the track makes sense because it is always adding a little bit of extra distance with the drift and the general accuracy.

GPS drift is caused by many external factors and consumer grade GPS devices cannot account for these. GPS drift causes the device to appear to be moving on its own. It is most obvious when looking at a track or when zoomed in all the way while at a standstill.

Satellites send their signal through the atmosphere down to earth. The atmosphere distorts this signal, and other environmental factors (such as trees, hills, mountains, buildings, cars, reflective surfaces and more) can further degrade the signal.

In the past, a satellite signal weakened by the environment caused a loss of position. High sensitivity chips were created so that it was no longer a question of if you had a position lock, but how accurate that position lock would be.

Now only the weakest signal prevents the device from locating your general position, but as a result, the decrease in accuracy that is introduced by the environment causes GPS drift. In other words, the device is more sensitive than the environment allows it to be accurate.

Being mindful of the limitations of consumer GPS devices will help alleviate concerns regarding their accuracy.

Today's GPS receivers are extremely accurate, thanks to their parallel multi-channel design. Garmin GPS receivers are accurate to within 15 meters (49 feet) 95% of the time with a clear view of the sky. Generally, users will see accuracy within 5 to 10 meters (16 to 33 feet) under normal conditions.

Certain atmospheric factors and other sources of error can affect the accuracy of GPS receivers. From time to time your accuracy will drop. GPS works on 'Line Of Sight'. If the device does not have a clear view of the sky your accuracy will drop and sometimes you will lose reception altogether. This is because the GPS signal is not powerful enough to travel through most solid objects. This holds true for all GPS devices.

To ensure you receive the best accuracy possible:

Avoid storing the device in your pocket, backpack, or rucksack
Ensure you hold your device properly as its antenna is located with this expectation
If possible, navigate to an area with a clear view of the sky
Following the above steps will increase your chances of a good, strong and accurate GPS signal lock. Remember, a GPS receiver is a complement to navigation and should not be the only navigational tool that you use. Using a paper map, a simple compass, and having knowledge of manual navigation is a good, safe practice. GPS should be utilized as a guide, not as the absolute definition of what happened. This applies to any device that is not a professional survey tool.

With Best Regards,
Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:46 AM, ME wrote:
>>
I adjusted the distance setting as you suggested but unfortunately, we ran into the same issue of too much mileage on the screen for both hikes! On Day 2 hiking the Arizona Trail, I happened to check at the 6 mile mark and the Garmin read 6.45. As we remarked while sitting on a log, we don't really care what the mileage is on Mapsource, we need it to be accurate now. It is so discouraging.
>>
As you can see from the track I attached from the Garmin for Day Two Arizona Trail hike, the total hike was 11.7 miles on Mapsource and 11.79 on HAZtraks vs 12.55 on the Garmin screen.
>>
Even on the 4.5 miler the day before the screen was off by 1/2 mile too. Screen showed 4.72 vs the accurate 4.4 on Mapsource and vs HAZtraks 4.471. And as usual the stop time was a bit more but I don't care about that. I did notice the elev was also off between HAZtraks screen and Garmin's.
>>
I've attached documentation for you including the live tracks from Garmin via the desktop for both hikes. The Track 20 tagged on some driving but if you take that off you get the accurate live track.
>>
I hope you can resolve this issue. It's quite discouraging to know I can't count on the Oregon 450 and have to take two instruments to get me where I'm going accurately.
>>
Thank you again for your time,
Angela

>>
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:06 PM, <Product.Support@garmin.com> wrote:
>>
Dear Angela Romain,

Thank you for providing that information. In order to submit the information to the engineers for review we would need the gpx files. Preferably from the device directly. To access this information please follow the steps below and attach two or three of the gpx files with track information.
Regarding something you could try to possibly make it a little more accurate would be changing the amount of time the device drops track points. This would hopefully increase the accuracy provided you stay moving. One of my fears here though is the device is still performing within the accuracy limits for the most part here. The device is consumer grade and is never guaranteed to be more than accurate to within 30 feet in the best conditions. Plus or minus 30 feet adds up over time. That is why you can see this accuracy being off. You can try to control the amount of time or distance the device drops track points by changing the Track settings:

1. Power on device
2. Select Setup
3. Select Tracks
4. Select Record Method (change to Distance)
5. Select Interval (Change to 0.01 mi)
>>
This should put the record method at one of it's more accurate points to drop track points every .01 of a mile.

With Best Regards,

>> Original Message ...
>> >> >> From: ME
>> >> >> To: Product.Support@garmin.com
>> >> >> Subject: Re: GRMA_Outdoor Oregon? 450 Repair Request confirmation,
>> >> >> Sent: 12/17/2014 9:26 AM

ok, after the re-boot I took it out with me on a 5.8 mile hike. I did not stop except to check the GPS to see where it was in relationship to my HAZtraks. This time the mileage on the Oregon 450 wasn't totally out of control but as usual 1/4 mile over on a hike of this mileage. If I do longer mileage, it gets off by at least 1/2. I painstakingly took pictures of the GPS along the way so that I could show you. Even the stopped time is off significantly on the screen but not so much when I upload the route.
>> >> >>
Here are my notes:
Garmin .92 miles19:54/1:25 stopped
HAZtrks .837 miles 18:24/.06 stopped
Garmin 2.12 miles/ HAZtrks 2 miles
Garmin 3.17 miles/ HAZtrks 3 miles
Garmin 4.21 miles/ HAZtrks 4 miles
Garmin 5.25 miles/ HAZtrks 5 miles
TOTALS:
Miles - Garmin 5.95 miles/ HAZtrks 5.66 miles
Total Time - Garmin 2:14 stopped 18:39 minutes/ HAZtrks 2:10, stopped 8:29 minutes

After upload to hikearizona.com the Garmin said: 5.73 miles stopped 11 minutes
and both were very accurate in AEG with Garmin at 837 and HAZtrks at 839.
>> >> >>
I can point out these differences on many of my trips as I have kept track.
>> >> >>
Having accurate mileage is so important. For example, this summer I separated from the group and ended up getting temporarily lost. Keeping track of my mileage was critical to me finding my way and being 1/4 to 1/2 mile off in a non-trail situation could have resulted in continuing to be lost. Sometimes my mileage is off by at least 1/2 mile and I don't know where it picked up that extra 1/2 mile.
>> >> >>
One hike the Garmin said 10.42 on the screen but uploaded with 9.8 miles. There are a few times when the screen and upload have been close too but more times than not, the screen number is not accurate by 1/4 to 1/2 mile.
>> >> >>
If you have any suggestions, I would be happy to try them.
>> >> >>
Thank you again for your time,
Angela

BobP wrote:Never rely on an electronic device to keep you from getting lost.

My garmin 60 was always off. 5 miles due to drift etc. No matter if it was a 5mile hike or a 30 mile hike. But once the active log was saved, it corrected most of that drift. My garmin Fenix seems to be pretty accurate.

Interesting conversation. I've programmed anti scribble code into HAZ Tracks. If you compare a lunch break to any Garmin you will see the difference in scribble. On the same token there are check points HAZ Tracks requires while hiking before recording a point. Since I've been using these devices for almost twenty years I've fine tuned HAZ Tracks for "hiking".

Garmin is designed for a wide variety of activities. Running, hunting and biking are likely the majority. Hiking is more talked about and tried once by people than actually done.

Take that into account. Then take into account people are very forgiving on saying they did more. Tell them they did a foot less and all hell breaks out.

You are welcome to post whatever. It's also okay with me if Garmin never figures out hiking ;)
I'd estimate of the likely ten thousand Garmin employees... two hike as much as we do

That said. HAZ Tracks is pretty dialed in on mileage as long as you are not in a canyon. Garmin does better than cell phones in canyons. They are much better at elevation in the field too. HAZ Tracks does all sorts of sliding calculations to compute the horrible elevation cell phones produce.

CannondaleKid wrote:But my [Crappy] 62ST

CannondaleKid wrote:My 76CS and 76CSX's with the default automatic settings were never read more than 9% too high, and with the settings I used they were within 2%.

neilends wrote: I've started using my smartphone more for day hiking, to log miles, than I used to. But I still want and have a strong GPS device (I use a Garmin 64 with the GLONASS thingie) for hiking trips in unfamiliar areas or longer distances,