HikeArizona.COM

Wikipedia wrote:The Apache Trail in Arizona was a stagecoach trail that ran through the Superstition Mountains. It was named the Apache Trail after the Apache Indians who originally used this trail to move through the Superstition Mountains.

The current Apache Trail links Apache Junction (33.4152°N 111.5807°W) at the edge of the Greater Phoenix area with Theodore Roosevelt Lake (33.6725°N 111.1531°W), through the Superstition Mountains and the Tonto National Forest.

Today, the majority of Apache Trail remains unpaved, turning into a dirt road a few miles up from Tortilla Flat, and continuing as such for nearly the full remainder of its length. The section east of Apache Junction is known officially as State Route 88. It is also the main traffic corridor through Apache Junction, turning into Main Street as the road passes into Mesa, and regains the Apache name by becoming Apache Boulevard in Tempe, ending at Mill Avenue. Prior to the completion of the Superstition Freeway in 1992, the Apache Junction portion of the Apache Trail was part of US Highway 60, which was rerouted to the Superstition Freeway once it was completed.

The Trail winds steeply through 40 miles (64 km) of rugged desert mountains, past deep reservoir lakes like Canyon Lake and Apache Lake. The narrow, winding road is unpaved from just east of the town of Tortilla Flat to Roosevelt Dam; there are steep cliff drops and little in the way of safety barriers. The trail requires caution when driving and it is not recommended for large RVs, SUVs, or caravans. Some large RV rental companies in the US do not allow their vehicles to be taken on this route.

The Apache Trail will be closed for some major road repairs from November 15 - January 21, 2011. major delays will occur prior to and after those stated dates. Plan your outings accordingly.

See press release: http://www.azdot.gov/highways/projects/ ... 101510.pdf

For an up-to-date list of all official road closures throughout the state AZ 511 is the place to go:
www.az511.gov
Select "Roadwork" and "Closures" then zoom into the area you are concerned about.
Currently:
SR-88 Eastbound
Road closed on SR-88 Eastbound from NF-213 (222) to NF-79 (229)
(MP 222 being at the Fish Creek Overlook)

@herdbull
Maybe he wants to discourage travel beyond Tortilla Flat so he can have the road all to himself?

@herdbull
You can see the closure marked on AZ511 and refer people there for official information on road closures. Of course, that assumes people on facebook are willing to listen to reason and actually read and think for themselves...tread carefully.

@herdbull
Sometimes you can ignore it though . . .

At least one of the major maps has removed the road altogether. Which actually makes sense. The others should probably follow suit.
[ no88 :: map ]

It's a shame to lose the other northern Reavis TH, but they probably aren't going to fix the road in my lifetime, so they might as well fix the map.

Is it more than a token effort to fix the road to connect Reavis North TH? I thought the damage was concentrated near Fish Creek? A few on HAZ have hiked the road and hopefully some might offer their opinion.

@nonot
I see no reason why they can't open the road from Apache Lake Marina to the Lewis and Pranty crossing. The repairs there would be minimal (or a token effort, in your words.) There was more damage (and is still susceptible to flooding) on the stretch east of Apache Lake Marina, but business interests there seem to have been a driver to get that stretch open.

Lewis and Pranty parallels the road from the ADOT yard to Fish Creek, but the very well-built (recent, last 20 years or so?) retaining walls have held admirably throughout and do not appear to be damaged in any discernible way, and the adjacent roadbed has only been damaged by occasional crossover runoff which should be easily remedied.

Even FCH could be cleared with some more effort, but since the rockslide there occurred due to flooding that was not a result of fire damage, doing so would likely require mitigation efforts against further rockfalls, and that is where I suspect the real challenge lies.

In the meantime, the FCH road bed continues to deteriorate as years of neglect since the original closure have resulted in blocked drainage paths and culverts which have caused greater erosion and a couple of spots where significant parts of the original road bed has been lost to gravity making vehicle passage nearly impossible. Every day that the relatively minor maintenance to keep the drainage paths open is ignored makes it exponentially more difficult to ever re-establish a vehicle-safe route on that hill. I personally don't believe that it will ever happen.

My opinion, is of course, just that. I'm not an engineer and don't know the details of what goes into road construction or repair. It's just what I think based on what I've seen while walking the road.

@chumley
I *am* an engineer, mechanical and electrical but with some civil background and a good family friend owns a civil engineering firm responsible for many ongoing state projects. While it's impossible to get a full beta, I've hiked a good portion of it and everything you said is pretty accurate. I'm extremely frustrated with the lack of access to the northern trailhead as it would be trivial to repair the road to there; it *feels* like something where someone is going, "Great, if we just move the closure slightly east, I don't have to maintain that trailhead anymore either..."

xsproutx wrote:I'm extremely frustrated with the lack of access to the northern trailhead as it would be trivial to repair the road to there; it *feels* like something where someone is going, "Great, if we just move the closure slightly east, I don't have to maintain that trailhead anymore either..."

I'm not an engineer however throughout my career I've worked on both road projects and been involved with post-fire closures on national forests so my guess is that you're right, there's a good chance that ADOT and the Tonto had a discussion about keeping the road closed where it is to limit vehicle access to Forest Road 212 however probably not only for the reason listed.When a fire like this hits, the Forest Service assembles something called a Burned Area Emergency Response (BAER) team that does an assessment of the burned area to determine if the post-fire changes to the landscape have created new, or imminent threats to life and property as well as creating plans to protect watersheds in the aftermath of the fire. A typical team consists of engineers, hydrologists, soil scientists, botanists, geologists, archeologists, recreation and trails specialists plus others disciplines as needed. In addition to identifying areas that need immediate stabilization, they also assess the likelihood of debris flows caused by post-fire rain events. What I remember of FR 212 is that it cuts through lots of decomposed granite or otherwise highly erosive soil so it's possible that the road was identified as being at high risk for debris flow during post fire rains and therefore it should be closed until the risk passes. When I worked in So Cal, I was told that after the 2003 St Sophia Camp tragedy, the Forest Service became a lot more risk averse when it comes to ending closures of this type.

However, it may be as simple as the fact that there was already a gate there because that also does happen, particularly in situations like this where the road in question (FR 212) is a maintenance level 2 road, which means that it's maintained for access by high clearance vehicles with no regard given to passenger cars or user comfort and convenience. So I don't know that the person in charge of engineering on the forest necessarily said oh good I don't have to maintain that access but rather, I'm not going to spend part of my already limited budget to restore a level 2 road knowing it will all be undone after the next severe storm...

All this said, I don't think it means it's a permanent closure yet, at least in this area. It wouldn't surprise me if the Fish Creek hill is never rebuilt because any cost benefit analysis would show that it doesn't really make sense to spend the amount of money it would take to engineer that road to modern standards given that its primary use is recreation and tourism. But the east side is a different story. More than once in my time working for the Forest Circus I saw a group of volunteers identify a problem and propose a solution that gets adopted. In this case, I think a if few hikers approached groups that are doing motorized recreation volunteer work for the Tonto to talk about a project to move the gate down the road a bit and how to get the Forest to support it. After that, the real challenge is getting ADOT on board with the idea because it's ultimately their road and their decision but if there's public support and the Tonto is behind it, they might be open to it.

Of course, this is all speculation on the decision process and the prospects of making this happen. I don't have any direct knowledge of how they decided on this particular closure boundary so there may be other considerations in keeping it closed there but maybe ADOT will be happy that they're being approached with a feasible idea that won't require millions of dollars and years of study so maybe there's no chance of it happening.

As far as the road on Fish Creek Hill, I know it's not a popular idea, but as lifelong hiker and backpacker, I think the road should remain closed and the portion from the top of the hill to somewhere near the ADOT yard be transferred to the Forest Service and closed as a road. As part of the transfer, ADOT would grant RTP money to the Forest to develop a nice trail down and develop a walk-in/bike-in campground near in the area just east of the bridge...

From the "House of Rhetoric".......
https://azdot.gov/projects/southeast-di ... ache-trail

Compare to: >
https://archive.curbed.com/2015/11/24/9 ... ge-beijing

hikeaz wrote:Compare to: >

Sorry, not even close to an accurate comparison.
#1. The 43-hour bridge in China was NOT BUILT in that time OR even at the site.
#2. Extensive engineering was likely done over many months
#3. It was a prefabricated bridge
#4. Possibly only ONE governmental entity handling the project.

Compared to Apache Trail:
#1. The section in question is roughly 7 miles long
#2. There are significant elevation changes from end-to-end
#3. There ai an even more significant variation in geology and terrain
#4. Entities from a state and a federal agency with possible competing interests must come to an amicable solution, how and what is done, who pays for it, etc.

So yeah, why don't they just prefabricate a 7 mile bridge from Fish Creek overlook to Reavis TH?

I used to drive AZ 88 a number of times a year and would like to do so again, so yes, I agree it has been too long for any reasonable decision to be made and executed.
However, unless we get Elon Musk to bankroll and/or we contact our state and federal reps (do they even care about AZ 88?) about all we can do is not hold our breath.
Then again... Elon would likely destroy it completely so not even hikers could pass through. (Or at the least would charge folks to drive on it)

If this is of interest to you and you were unable to attend the public meeting held last month (you're lucky, there were a whole lot of irrational, emotional, unreasonable people there!) you can view a recording of the presentation here: https://www.vimeo.com/855180682/7979fedc80

While there is a link to it on the page hikeaz posted above, all the images and documents from the presentation and results of the study can be found here: https://azdot.gov/projects/southeast-di ... st-222-229

My conclusion from attending is that ADOT is an entity that strives to manage sustainable highways. It has no interest in restoring a dirt road that will be subject to repeated damage from extreme weather and geologic events and necessitate additional repair funding annually. This seemed to be against the wishes of the vast majority of those in attendance. The state (ADOT) has an easement to manage this "highway" across federal land (Tonto NF). The Forest Service has no funding to make the repairs itself, so they would prefer to see ADOT pay for it.

While fixing the road with minimal improvements in order to reopen it would cost somewhere around $5 million, ADOT proposed a $35 million option which included paving FCH with chip-seal and installing new concrete guard rails, while rebuilding a number of drainage culverts. There was also a $100+ million option that involved widening and paving the entire length of the road.

Though this isn't news to anybody at this point, the whole thing is a bureaucratic debacle. Regardless of the next steps, if federal funding is going to be utilized, it will be a minimum of 3-5 years to complete the environmental assessments that are required when receiving federal funds.

I still think they should just drop a bomb on FCH and cut a nice singletrack hiking trail with some interpretive signs for visitors to relive the road's history while enjoying the scenery in peace and quiet. This is not one of the options ADOT was considering as of the 8/15 meeting.

chumley wrote: ↑Sep 16 2023 7:07 pm While fixing the road with minimal improvements in order to reopen it would cost somewhere around $5 million, ADOT proposed a $35 million option which included paving FCH with chip-seal and installing new concrete guard rails, while rebuilding a number of drainage culverts. There was also a $100+ million option that involved widening and paving the entire length of the road.

I'm sure that the businesses at Apache Lake would love to see a paved highway to their front door. I hope they don't go this route, it would ruin the aesthetics of the entire area. It needs to stay dirt.

I wonder if they have ever looked into making it a Scenic Byway? That way I think they would be eligible for even more Federal help. I think it would qualify under the criteria?

"To be designated as a National Scenic Byway, a byway must meet the criteria for at least one of six "intrinsic qualities": archeological, cultural, historic, natural, recreational, and scenic."

That video is sort of comical. Tortilla Flat is open today. The road is paved all the way there. The history is untouched, unaffected, and preserved.

The only thing that reopening the closed portion of the road will do to affect Tortilla Flat is increase traffic -- oh, and $$$ to the man in the video. As such I don't blame him for his perspective, but the emotional crap is irrelevant.

Interesting vid. I would imagine that the I-17 project is consuming much of ADOT's money and energy. Plus all the other thousands of miles of freeway issues we have. But Fix the Dam road is his bailiwick and goodness knows there are hundreds of folks that need to see the baby rattlers and have their photo taken in a toilet seat.

I'd lovw for the road to be restored, but if there's a good argument to put it ahead of many other worthy projects, I still haven't heard it.

The recommendations are in. Despite nobody actually supporting the alternative chosen, ADOT reports that the majority of the 1700 comments received were in support. Which is pretty comical.

After extensive study and public input on the feasibility of reopening 5 miles of State Route 88 (Apache Trail) severely damaged by flooding and erosion, the Arizona Department of Transportation is recommending improvements estimated to cost $33.7 million that would be needed to restore access safely and sustainably. There currently is no funding identified for a project on this unpaved stretch east of the Phoenix area, though ADOT is seeking federal funding.

https://azdot.gov/news/adot-recommends- ... iles-sr-88

In the absence of the funding necessary to do what they really want, and presumably continued vocal support for opening the road in any capacity, ADOT has reverted to "recommending" the option of their plan that received the vast majority of public support. This "interim" plan is a stopgap to appease the public's desire to open the road in some capacity and ADOTs preferred alternative to fully rebuild and resurface the damaged road.

ADOT’s interim plan calls for removing boulders on Fish Creek Hill, mitigating rockfall as needed between Fish Creek Hill Overlook and Fish Creek (mileposts 222-223.5), making repairs to retaining walls, installing new signage, cleaning and potentially replacing damaged drainage culverts, and taking other steps to safely reopen the highway for high-clearance or four-wheel drive vehicles.

https://azdot.gov/news/adot-proposes-4- ... cess-sr-88

While I personally still vote for closing the road to vehicle travel forever and converting it to a multiuse trail, I do find it interesting that the solution being proposed today for a cost of $4 million could have easily been implemented five years ago (and probably at a lower cost). It'd be humorous if it wasn't so pathetic.