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Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
Posted: Jul 16 2017 9:18 am
by Tough_Boots
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 4:25 pm
by joebartels
chumley wrote:Maybe
Ellison Creek Cascades is just one of those hiking names that @joebartels invented!?
I'v been wondering all day but can not verify since the HAZ Library was reorganized** in my recent absence. Believe the hike was inspired by
https://hikearizona.com/books.php?REV=1&ID=9
If it doesn't say Cascades in there then I buttered the muffin.
if so it wasn't my best yet does have some mention when googling
Ellison Creek Cascades
** no longer follows Schrettinger subjects and sub-subjects method
more of a random it''ll fit in this box method
almost makes me yearn for dewey decimal
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 4:32 pm
by trekkin_gecko
the book "
day trips with a splash" lists this area as Ellison creek
the author mentions it is also referred to as cold springs
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 4:41 pm
by joebartels
could be Pancho!
both Day Trips and the HAZ description are 2000
believe Day Trips was technically a tad earlier as he had to recollect data when his vehicle was robbed or such
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 4:53 pm
by chumley
joebartels wrote:could be Pancho!
I have that book! In fact, I'm pretty sure the first time I went there was because of his book!
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 5:18 pm
by Nighthiker
Checked my library:
USGS 15 min. Topo map 1952 Indicates several buildings extreme SW corner of Sec. 30, Cold Springs is labeled. Magnetic Declination is 14 degrees East.
USGS 7.5 min. Topo map 1973, no structure icons, Cold Springs labeled. Magnetic Declination is 14 degrees East.
USGS 7.5 MIN Topo map 2004, no structure icon, Cold Springs labeled though shows the area as private land. Magnetic Declination is 11 1/2 Degrees East.
Tonto National Forest Visitors Map 1975, no campground labeled.
Bob Hirsh's Guide to Camping in Central Arizona (1975) does not list any campgrounds along Houston Mesa Road.
Streamside Trails by Steve Krause (1994) lists a Waterfall and Swimming Hole Hike on page 24 and 25 and list Ellison Creek as moderate 1 mile walk down to a 40' cascading waterfall.
Regarding campgrounds on USFS managed lands, I am aware of former campgrounds not listed or labeled on forest service maps and USGS Topo maps.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 5:40 pm
by joebartels
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 6:46 pm
by hikeaz
chumley wrote:Tough_Boots wrote:The listing on Alltrails (created in 2010) calls it Cold Springs so there is some evidence to it being a commonly used name.
Not that I'd take AllTrails as gospel, but that's just a GPS track that somebody posted and named Cold Springs.
AT doesn't have a hike description by that name, though it does have descriptions listed for Water Wheel Falls and Ellison Creek Trail, both of which end at the cascade.
But it certainly seems as if there are locals who call it Cold Spring.
I was just curious since I hadn't heard that name used before.
chumley wrote:@hikeaz
chumley wrote:Cold Spring is on Ellison Creek on private ranch property.
Is there something useful on the map you attached that I'm missing?
Pre-1960, topo maps refer to Ellison Ranch as Cold Spring Ranch. Which makes sense since it was built adjacent to Cold Spring.
Cold Spring Campground at the end of FR420 is referenced in the HAZ writeup, but that seems to have disappeared over the years as well. It may have been on old FS maps, it isn't on any of the USGS historical topos.
I find it interesting that if locals knew of it as Cold Springs swimming hole that name didn't get more widespread use over the years. Maybe
Ellison Creek Cascades is just one of those hiking names that @joebartels invented!?
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 7:26 pm
by chumley
chumley wrote:I was just curious since I hadn't heard that name used before.
I should have been more clear. I was talking about the name being used to identify the swimming hole, not the spring (which I referenced in reply #1, so obviously I had heard that name before
)
Either way, I was wrong and
have heard of it before, because I own and have read the book that tells the world it is also known as Cold Springs.
Viva Pancho!
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 17 2017 11:29 pm
by PrestonSands
I remember always hearing my friends refer to the Ellison Creek cascades area as "Cold Springs", back when I lived in Payson.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 18 2017 6:22 am
by SpiderLegs
Took me a couple minutes to figure out, but I've gone camping in the area and had this spot marked as a place to check out. Instead checked out a creek flowing up the street near Whispering Pines. That's a beautiful area that attracts a ton of people on the weekends. We send out an advance team on Wednesday to snag a weekend camping spot when we head up there with friends.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 18 2017 7:27 am
by SuperstitionGuy
With the increasing use of the streams coming off of the rim country I wonder if it is time to consider flood warning sensors that could transmit to a central monitoring system as well as trigger an immediate alarm down stream of a flood sensing sensor itself. The technology is certainly available and I wonder if such a system anywhere in the world is already in use. Think solar powered and wireless.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 18 2017 8:02 am
by sneakySASQUATCH
They monitor rainfall in Ute Pass through gauges,video, and and who knows what else. If it meets a certain criteria I believe .5" / Hour (it may have changed with all the flood mitigation over the last 3 Years) there are gates at the bottom of the pass and up by my house that come down blocking the entire highway both directions. They also dispatch snow plows throughout the pass for immediate clean up when there is forecast that could lead to a flash flood warning. Our creek regularly flash floods when it rains up in divide or Woodland park without a drop in our area. Of course 4 people died in the creek during the first summer after the Waldo Canyon fire before the mitigation and precautions were implemented.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 19 2017 5:58 am
by ljcygnet
I've heard people suggest a tornado siren type warning system for the Water Wheel area, because it gets so much traffic from people not familiar with the usual hazards. This is the worst tragedy anyone can remember in the area, but not the only one, and just last year there was a very near miss that could have been just as tragic.
The problem with Water Wheel is that you can't really see the Ellison Creek headwaters when you're down in the creek; hard to tell if it's getting rain or not. It's eight miles away, so if you hear thunder, it's only going to be distant rumbles. No cell reception. Not much radio reception and the local radio stations (KMOG and I forget the other one) don't usually broadcast weather alerts.
There are also NO warning signs at the parking lots. They need to be giant, neon bright, and in multiple locations.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 19 2017 4:12 pm
by te_wa
"Streamside Trails by Steve Krause (1994) lists a Waterfall and Swimming Hole Hike on page 24 and 25 and list Ellison Creek as moderate 1 mile walk down to a 40' cascading waterfall." - nighthiker
according to the latest printing* of above mentioned book, on page 93 it is indeed labeled "ellison creek trail" but the photo's footnote describes ellison creek as "cascading" down the teired waterfall.
*12/2003
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 22 2017 5:14 pm
by trekkin_gecko
Forest Service closes recreation sites along the East Verde River Recreation Sites
http://www.paysonroundup.com/news/fores ... 691fe.html
this doesn't show up the the forum forest news yet
not sure the link will work correctly as I've used up my reading allotment
found in payson roundup
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson
Posted: Jul 22 2017 5:24 pm
by joebartels
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
Posted: Jul 22 2017 9:26 pm
by SpiderLegs
The camping spots near Whispering Pines were some of my favorite spots. Got to fall asleep with the sound of a stream gurgling in the background. But the last few times I've gone I knew that it was only a matter of time before the campsites got shut down. Lots of trash and the volunteer fire fighters were complaining about how many unattended fires they had to put out in the area. This is why we can't have nice things.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
Posted: Mar 26 2018 5:11 pm
by chumley
AZCentral has published a long-form piece on this flood.
https://www.azcentral.com/pages/interac ... od-deaths/
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
Posted: Mar 26 2018 7:07 pm
by cactuscat
Wow - great, heart-wrenching piece! Thanks for sharing.
Re: Flash Flood Fatalities Near Payson & East Verde Closure
Posted: Mar 26 2018 7:20 pm
by outdoor_lover
I was out of the State when that all happened. That's the first In-Depth thing I've read on it... What a Tragedy.....
