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Sad there will be more Saguaros in Tucson burned/killed.
This absolutely should not be at lower elevations but non natives grasses / cattle turned much of the catalina foothills into a prairie.
4th of july A Mountain fiasco and Mercer fire were two relatively recent examples around here.
Pontatoc seems to have burned completely and that has so many Saguaro sitting in grass fields and Ventana has large buffelgrass patches - I avoid Pontatoc because its so chock full of weeds its disgusting and the trail up to maiden pools in Ventana is similarly disgusting.
As if climate change wasn't enough stress on the Saguaro.
The fire retardants being used to save all the foothills mansions promote the re-growth of mainly non native grasses and they are already coming back after a fire very well.
So much destruction caused by the introduction of cattle to the desert and accelerating climate change too - I quit eating meat years ago and volunteer for invasive species monitoring and removal efforts while maintaining a career and running goals no problem - people in Phoenix don't let this happen to your Saguaros.

Covid -19, West Nile Virus, rampant fires, looting, electric bikes on trails, potential spawn of Chums and Jim H.... This is biblical.

Alston_Neal wrote:potential spawn of Chums and Jim H

Pretty sure there's some kind of punctuation missing. Even 2020 can't make that happen.

@chumley
oops!
I had my face mask on, my new excuse.

@gummo
Hogs are not a "maybe." Fish and Wildlife Service spends a lot of time every year trying to thin the population at Topock Marsh.

Oh. Sorry, Phoenicians. I forgot. Western Arizona isn't actually part of Arizona.

@azbackpackr
If only the hogs had their own FB group.

One key point about Scott's list, which is a good one, is that in order to be classified as invasive, vs. simply being exotic, a species must be capable of spreading, usually in an aggressive manner, and substantially replace native species. Peach Faced Love Birds, while exotic and coming from South Africa, are not invasive. They basically require the water and habitat, as well as winter micro climates, to survive in Arizona, and I am not aware of them even existing outside of our human made envelope of habitat.

Certainly, boars or hogs, salt cedar, Lehman love grass and buffel grass, and many others, do meet that criteria.

I was reading that in Sonora, Mexico, extensive areas of exotic Buffel grass have essentially obliterated former Sonoran desert plant systems. I believe much of the grass that lines the road to Madera Canyon is the Lehman Love grass, and despite Matt's love of mesquite, that is an invasive native, spreading over areas where formerly it was not. Often introduced by cattle, ironically.

Total inaction may seem a sensible choice. At some point you're really just saying we're incapable and it is a bit like say, "why water this pecan orchard, mother nature knows best, let it live, and let die". California's central valley has almost no resemblance to what existed prior to a large drought in the 1850s or 1860s. Almost entirely replaced by exotic cool season grasses, before crops and irrigation structures were created. There is nothing new here.

@azbackpackr
Hogs are invasive. That's why I have teamed up with Smithfield and am doing my honest best, each and every day to deplete their numbers.

@air

Hello air,

The continued destruction of Saguaro—climate change, invasive species, expanding housing, highway construction, wildfires, etc—is also cultural genocide vs the O’odham. Border wall construction has resulted in 200-year-old saguaro being bulldozed down even inside Organ Pipe National Monument.

It can take 50-to-70 years for the saguaro to bloom. As the saguaro fall, harvesting the nectar for food is an ancient tradition that is also slowly disappearing. For both the To’ohno O’odham (‘Desert People’) and the Akieml O’odham ('River People'), O'odham means both "saguaro" and "person."

“According to O’odham tradition, the origin story of the saguaro begins with a little girl wandering through the desert, left to fend for herself while her mother traveled to play toka (a game similar to field hockey). As the girl looked for her mother, animals like the coyote, quail, and eagle helped her. She finally found her mother, who yelled at her, causing her to run away crying. As her tears fell, she sank into the ground with her arms above her head. People pulled on them trying to extract her from the ground, but they were unable. Where the girl sank into the ground, a cactus grew, which now feeds people and wildlife with its fruit.”

We may get to the point where the only Saguaros left standing will be those in highway dividers, front yards, and entry strips in front of shopping centers and apartment complexes.

As to invasives like buffelgrass adding to the fuel load for wildfires, have you any experience with Stinknet (Oncosiphon piluliferum), also known as Globe Chamomile? (No, ‘Stinknet’ is not a reference to an Internet site dealing with hiking socks and passing gas.) If you’ve ever peeled pineapple and left the peelings in the trash can long enough for them to rot, you got an idea of what this smells like when the leaves are crushed. Pretty recent invasive into Arizona via California/Africa. Will spread into extensive mats and when dried will burn with high heat and give off an irritating smoke. The flowers are unique enough to attract home gardeners. Of course, once it is established it will take over the garden. Have you seen this invasive impacting Saguaro?

Jim_H wrote: ↑Jun 13 2020 9:17 am One key point about Scott's list, which is a good one, is that in order to be classified as invasive, vs. simply being exotic, a species must be capable of spreading, usually in an aggressive manner, and substantially replace native species. Peach Faced Love Birds, while exotic and coming from South Africa, are not invasive.

No, but European Starlings are. They steal eggs, kick out baby birds of other species and take over the nests. I've seen it several times. House Sparrows as well. They will throw Cliff and Barn Swallow Chicks right out of their nests. I've seen that first hand too at Green Valley Park in Payson. The Carnage of all those dead baby birds on the ground was immensely disturbing actually. But unlike invasive Flora, you simply can't go around shooting all the birds, since most are in urban environments anyway.

@outdoor_lover
Apropos of your comment Pam: I've been watching "Springwatch", an English TV show where they show pastoral wildlife scenes of the British countryside. A lot of well placed nestcams, good videographers, the best of public submitted videos, well edited and discussed by idiosyncratic hosts. I got a taste for it a few years ago and though all my English relatives make fun of me, I like it, and it's available on Britbox streaming service.

Anyhow I've noticed the last couple days an awful lot of mean things happen to those baby chicks.

Also vaguely related our cats have gotten better at catching birds and bringing them in through the cat door. (Pet cats certainly are invasive species and I do all I can to limit their effect. Every slow lizard that lives in my backyard I've released into the front yard, sometimes with a shorter tail.) Recent observations: mockingbirds make a real racket inside my house and last night I did catch and release a hummingbird in our upstairs bedroom. Our cats have "soft mouths"...would make good retrievers.

@outdoor_lover
You may remember my extensive study of invasive feral goldfish.
[ photoset ]

@azbackpackr
Why did you say, "Oh Sorry Phoenicians...?" We're you triggered because I wasn't sure that hogs were in AZ? I added Yuma when mentioning water snakes, so I don't understand your microaggression that Western Az isn't a part of AZ.

@outdoor_lover
Yeah, and I didn't suggest that we do. But there are things which can be done to preserve what we can, all the while accepting some situations are lost. If I interpret your and Matt's statements in the broader sense, all is lost and, "give up now", seems to be what you guys advocate. I don't quite feel like being defeated just yet. I do, however, prefer pragmatic approaches. You may be aware of the Burmese Pythons in the Everglades? I'll side with the eradication folks there, even if in 100 years it proves moot as seas rise, the glades are flooded or salinized to mangrove swamps, and the pythons are up in the St John's Marsh north of US 60. I prefer that to standing around ringing hands lamenting something and acting as if nothing can be done. You know, the old don't go gently into that good night. I don't get this concept of simultaneously loving salty horses, thinking wilderness exists and needs protection, fighting or demanding to preserve something because people have an emotional attachment to it, and then suddenly resigning one's self to a false feeling of nature taking it's course when the situation is one that resulted from human actions. Even if people are part of nature, there is something to be said for preserving something we like, for as long as we can.

@gummo
Liz has a long standing emotion regarding the Phoenix based membership of HAZ, and Phoenix centered mindset of the members and website. There was once and may still be a phenomenon of people in the valley believing that it is the only part of the state, and ignoring things outside of it.

@gummo
Actually, I'm aware that you are one of a rare breed of central Arizonan who ventures to its "west coast," and I've enjoyed photos you've posted over the years. Most Arizonans aren't even aware of the area, and it receives its most significant tourism from Californians, although most of them actually live further away. I have grown weary over the years of trying to explain the river area to people from Phoenix.

Jim_H wrote:all is lost and, "give up now", seems to be what you guys advocate

First off, you're the one who thinks all is lost because the world has evolved by a few more steps. I personally think we'll all be fine with or without these invasions.

As far as giving up goes - Not at all, but in focusing on what can clearly not be changed, we fail to attend to what can be - that which lies ahead if you're wasting your time trying to undo everything, then you have no time to actually do anything. Additionally, the environment is far more complex than the average human gives it credit for. We love to put ourselves on a pedestal and insist we are so superior as to come up with a solution in five words or less. Time and time again that kind of thinking and the subsequent actions not only fails to solve, but exacerbates the issue - then square that with the fact that while you were out playing Superman vs The Impossible Cause, another 200 homeless vets in your community missed another 3 squares, and are depressed about their REAL issues to the point of wanting to jump in front of a speeding vehicle. Put your energy into something meaningful and surmountable!

Update: I should probably add that this is merely my opinion and not necessarily the view of anyone else.

@Mountain_Rat
Okay I don't understand what is going on with you. Not only did I never make that statement, when you responded to me originally I was talking mostly about the false dichotomy between not eating meat and associating that with being ecologically minded and no other choice available. Talking about homeless vets now? What?!?

@Mountain_Rat
You do know I didn't start this thread right?

@Jim_H
Just 3 posts prior to mine you stated that, in the third sentence. I may be missing or misinterpreting something, but then you go on to support my point in saying that a fight to eradicate the pythons is a worthy one even if fruitless. Any fight that is fruitless is pointless. I'm merely suggesting that our energies be spent on surmountable causes. And yes, our vets are a glaring example of the thousands of other issues that are far more critical than... ...grass.

@Jim_H
Trust me Jim, I get it. I was simply making a statement that you can't fix ALL Invasives. Some, we just have to figure out how to live with, although in some Fauna cases, such as Rainbow Trout, they are eradicated from certain areas. And the war on the Apple Snails is ever ongoing. And yes, all those escaped/released Exotics turned Invasives in Florida and Texas and even here are a big problem. Some can be fixed, some cannot. Species have been banned from certain states because of it. But the Market continues to support and turtles go plop into the urban park.

I will pull up Stinknet as much as I can and have time for. But like most weeds, it's not just about a one-time eradication, there has to be maintenance removals or it's all for naught. And that's hard to keep up with in small areas, so thousands of acres of National Forest just seem overwhelming. I don't pull anything else, because honestly, I wouldn't know what I was pulling, lol Education and yes, labeling and comments can go a long way in helping create an awareness. I get your sentiment and I agree for the most part. Someday, fires, that are now different than what has gone on historically, will most likely wipe out the Sonoran Desert as we know it and Saguaros will go on the Critically Endangered List. At the rate we're going, people may get there before that, lol