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You took up a whole page complaining about criminals and then you praise one at the end

@chumley
OK I did some searches and apparently the wackos who created it say it means 'resist fascism'. Why they decided to use Smokey Bear is just ridiculous and non-sensical, but what else would a lying communist propagandist do but twist the meaning of anything GOOD? Both my Grandfathers were in WW2 and fought against TRUE communism and the evil propaganda associated with it. Today it's weaseled it's way into America and Trump seems to be one of the few with balls enough to try to stop it. The people voted and Trump won in a landslide. This is after the deep state tried to ruin him with Russian collusion (failed), those fake lawsuits (failed), the stolen election of 2020 (succeeded but prosecutions will follow), and even tried to shoot him in Butler, PA (failed attempt).

Thank God the Country survived through the 2 biggest fascists of the 21st century - Barrack Hussein Obama and Crooked Joe Biden. Libtards like to try to tie Trump to fascism but they don't even know what fascism REALLY IS... They don't seem to understand that Trump is freedom-loving, anti-regulation, anti-crime, pro-constitution, believes in lower taxation, and wants to make it easier to start and run a business here. Libtards believe they should be able to break some laws without any punishment and they confuse a strong anti-crime stance with fascism because most of them believe that criminals, including illegal alien criminals, should get a free pass, like they do in Colorado and California, where leeches and parasites can rob $2,000 from a grocery store and basically get away with it. I think Trump should sent the National Guard to Colorado Springs. Any bum or parasite who tries to steal from a grocery store should get locked up for 30 days. If it happens a 2nd time, 90 days, 3rd time 1 year, etc..... This is what we need to prevent the whole country from turning into a 3rd World S-hole SLUM.

Examples of FASCISM:
--------------------
1. In 2010, when Obama took over the Healthcare industry and created Obamacare, also known as the ""Affordable Care Act"". There was nothing 'affordable' about it. People were FORCED to buy a health insurance plan that they didn't want and they average premium more than doubled. When the Obama administration implemented the Obamacare mandate this took away our freedom to choose.

2. From 2014 through 2018, the IRS assessed a penalty on tax filers who didn't maintain healthcare coverage. This was finally repealed in Dec 2019 under the Trump administration. WASHINGTON — A federal appeals court ruled Wednesday that the individual mandate in the Affordable Care Act, better known as Obamacare, is unconstitutional.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/suprem ... l-n1104476

3. July 2021 - many US states had mask mandates, EVEN for people who were vaccinated!!! Studies later showed that the masks were making people sicker and had really terrible impacts on children in schools.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 087357002/

4. Biden announced in Sept 2021 a vaccine mandate for health care facilities that receive Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement, impacting some 17 million health care workers in the nation. This takes away people's freedom to choose. The negative health impacts of this has been considerable and is not over yet.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/hundreds-hosp ... d=80303408


5. When the Biden administration unconstitutionally took control of PRIVATE companies like Twitter and Facebook, and suppressed FREE SPEECH by banning accounts and deleting posts. There were many victims of this including Donald Trump and Dr Robert Malone.

---

A libtard might say Trump is a fascist by criminalizing flag burning. Burning a flag on your own property is legal and allowed, but when a person goes to a public square in a city and burns a flag it (a) can incite a riot, (b) disturbs the peace, (c) is considered littering, (d) endangers other people who happen to be there, and (e) desecrates the symbol of America.

America. If you don't respect it, and want to trash it, then effin LEAVE IT. Go live in Mexico, Cuba, or China, and see how far stupid liberalism gets you there.

@Mike_W
@PatrickL
@Mountain_Rat
@Jim
@chumley

This is a hiking website, the subject you are all discussing is one that you all will never be able to come to agreement on.
I'm sure the are other Social Media sites that would better serve these arguments.

While not the question Chumley asked, Here's the simple question I asked Chat GPT. I'm posting this and then I'm out of this forum topic.

""I'm going to insert a string of arguments. Can you please sum them up and tell me what is factual and what is not?""

1. Summary of Arguments in the Thread & Registry Note

""Resist Smokey Bear"" meaning:

Some commenters (e.g. Jim) explain it originated after 2016 as a protest symbol against Trump-era policies, tied to environmental resistance and rogue NPS employees.

Others (e.g. Mike_W) see it as nonsense, an attack on Smokey Bear’s wildfire prevention message, or communist propaganda.

Some interpret it literally (“resist wildfire prevention”), others see it as metaphorical resistance to destructive policies.

Crime & theft claims:

Mike_W and the registry note both argue that states like CA and CO “let criminals steal $2,000 from a store without consequences,” saying this turns places into “third world slums.”

Calls for harsher punishments (e.g., National Guard, escalating jail terms).

Politics & Trump:

Registry note and several thread posts argue Trump is a defender of freedom, law, order, and the Constitution.

Claim 2020 election was stolen, Russian collusion was a hoax, lawsuits against Trump are fake, assassination attempts failed, and “deep state” is against him.

Label Democrats (Obama, Biden) as fascists, crooked, or incompetent.

Examples of “fascism” offered by posters:

Obamacare (Affordable Care Act) = government overreach forcing people to buy insurance.

Individual mandate penalty (2014–2018) = unconstitutional restriction, repealed under Trump.

Mask mandates (2021) = claim masks harmed health, especially children.

Biden vaccine mandate (2021) = claimed unconstitutional and harmful.

Social media moderation = described as Biden administration suppressing free speech.

Economic/tax arguments:

High-tax “blue states” described as parasitic and socialist.

Arizona praised for flat 2.5% income tax.

Inflation blamed on Democrats.

2. Factual vs. Not Factual (or Misleading)
Factually Correct (broadly):

Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) included an individual mandate requiring health coverage or a penalty. Penalty applied 2014–2018, reduced to $0 starting in 2019.

Federal court challenges to the ACA’s mandate did occur, though the law itself was upheld overall by the Supreme Court.

Biden administration announced a vaccine mandate for healthcare workers in facilities receiving Medicare/Medicaid funds (Sept 2021). It was upheld by the Supreme Court (2022).

States like CA and CO did raise felony theft thresholds. CA’s Prop 47 (2014) set it at $950; Colorado raised theirs to $2,000 in 2019. Theft below that is still illegal but prosecuted as a misdemeanor.

Not Factual / Misleading:

“Trump won in a landslide in 2020.” → False. Biden won both the electoral college (306–232) and the popular vote by 7 million.

“2020 election was stolen.” → No credible evidence; courts, DOJ, and state election officials (Republican and Democrat) confirmed it was secure.

“Russian collusion was a hoax.” → Misleading. Mueller report found insufficient evidence to charge conspiracy but did confirm Russian interference and multiple contacts between Trump campaign and Russia.

“Obama and Biden are the biggest fascists of the 21st century.” → Opinion, not fact. “Fascism” has a specific historical meaning that doesn’t align with U.S. democratic institutions.

“Masks made people sicker.” → Largely false. While evidence on mask effectiveness evolved, major studies show masks helped reduce COVID spread. No credible evidence masks caused widespread illness.

“Biden took control of Twitter/Facebook.” → False. Government pressured platforms to moderate misinformation, but there was no federal takeover. Courts have blocked some government contact as possibly coercive, but the companies remain private.

“People can steal $2,000 and get away with it in CA/CO.” → Misleading. Theft under those thresholds is still a crime (misdemeanor), but critics argue enforcement is inconsistent and penalties are lighter.

“Trump is freedom-loving, anti-crime, pro-Constitution, etc.” → Opinion, not a verifiable fact.

Bottom Line:

The factual parts: ACA mandate history, theft thresholds, Biden vaccine mandate.

The misleading or false parts: 2020 election “stolen,” Trump “landslide,” Obama/Biden = “fascists,” masks harmful, Biden “controlling” social media, people being allowed to freely steal $2,000.

The rest is political opinion and rhetoric.

@mike_w

The_Eagle wrote:This is a hiking website, the subject you are all discussing in one that you all will never be able to come to agreement on.

I enjoy the hiking part. I lean toward having the political conversations in person over a coffee or a beer. Mt Rosa sounds like a fantastic hike that I would enjoy. As do a number of other hikes that Mike has posted this summer. The politics, whether on paper in a summit register or online in a triplog, can be a distraction from sharing an enjoyable hiking experience with other interested hikers. I'll stick to the agreeable baseline ""Hitler was bad."" Now, let's go outside and climb a mountain.

@chumley
I agree that hitler was bad and i should also add that Trump has ZERO in common with hitler.

@The_Eagle
Yes i think we should move this to a post.
Im in an airport now so i cant reply in detail now, but.... Trump landslide was 2024. 2020 election had so many red flags and security holes. Millions of mail in ballots could easily be falsified and I believe they were. Nobody has the balls to challenge it. They dont want to be targeted by the deep state. Russian collusion was proved to be made up according to FBI. Obama knew it was a lie but he continued to push the big lie. That's treason. Fascism is using govt power to take over the private sector. Tyranny is using govt power to rule over and control the people. So technically the obamacare mandate, covid vaccine mandate, etc are examples of tyranny. In a free society people cannot be forced to buy a health plan. In a free society people cannot be forced to even have health insurance or take a covid shot or drug, especially unproven. By the way, the so-called covid vaccine is not a vaccine at all because it does not prevent a person from getting covid. It can no longer be called a vaccine. Communists like to twist words to get to the end goal. That evil propaganda is what i will resist!!!

Mike_W wrote:
[ triplog ]

@Jim
well from my perspective they get paid through our tax dollars (which are way too high) and don't contribute to the GDP. I believe 1 out of 6 employees in this Country is a govt employee (Federal, State, Local, etc.). Yes, I understand we need some govt employees but it's a disgrace that govt has grown to be so bloated and incompetent (generally speaking). Why should almost 20% of the workforce be a govt job? Seems like 0.1% or 1% is a more balanced realistic number.

Here's what I found online.

https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/2 ... c-Plan.pdf

First of all, why does ADOT need over 3,600 employees? That number does not include construction workers because they are all contractors. Highway projects take FOREVER and they always go way over budget. Seems like road projects get done a whole lot faster in other states and other Countries. There's so many crappy roads around here. I think you may remember.

While they were working on I-10, they completely SHUT DOWN 2 adjacent exits on the highway (Ina and Orange Grove) for at least 2 years. A lot of businesses in the area had to shut down and we were inconvenienced for so long. Now, just a few years later they tore up an entire 10 mile stretch of highway and that project seems to be never-ending. Seems like they are doing the same work over again because it was done wrong the first time? There seems to be a lot of waste, fraud, and abuse going on, from what I can see.

So, I'm not a big fan of ADOT for that reason.

@Mike_W
Okay, based on my question which was:

perhaps you could tell us if you know what ADOT and DPS do?

You have only mentioned ADOT.

Now, can you tell me what you think DPS is or does? Feel free to google if you like.

I want you to be able respond to both agencies, before I respond to you.


I had to copy your link and paste here, since it didn't work when I copied your comment to the forum.
https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/2 ... c-Plan.pdf

Here is the most concise answer I can create for you, and probably one you should have used instead what you wrote.

Agency Description: The Arizona Department of Transportation is responsible for planning, designing, constructing, maintaining, and operating the state’s highway
transportation system. In addition, the Department provides driver’s license and registration services, is responsible for commercial vehicle enforcement and registration
compliance, operates the Grand Canyon National Park Airport, and maintains the state fleet

That was copied from the pdf you attached and was written by ADOT.

Search Assist says...

DPS typically refers to a Department of Public Safety, which is responsible for ensuring safety and security in a specific area, such as a university campus or a city. These departments often provide services like crime prevention, emergency response, and community safety education.

I really don't have a problem with DPS, as long as we're not getting taxed/billed for a lot of B.S. that we don't need.

OK, now I'm going to shift gears and talk about the taxes that we pay. Some of this does overlap with ADOT. Here is my experience with regard to taxes...

1. Our real estate taxes are ridiculous - always going up. When I bought my small house in NW Tucson in 2014, my annual real estate taxes were around $1,100. Today they are OVER $2,000. Taxes are what is keeping me from buying a nicer, more valuable house. I know RE taxes are much higher in places like New Jersey. So people there are getting RtFO!
2. I'm also annoyed that I'm paying taxes for community colleges when I don't use the system and classes are affordable to anyone. Whether my taxes pay for DPS services at a college or university, I don't know. I'm also annoyed that I'm paying taxes to a public school system that keeps getting more radical and focuses more and more on teaching propaganda rather then teaching what kids need. How about taxing homeowners according to how many kids they HAVE in the school system, rather than this socialist MONEY GRAB that we have now??
3. Tucson sales tax is 8.7%. Seems like robbery when other areas are much lower. Flagstaff goes as high as 12.9%.
4. AZ DOT Vehicle & registration taxes are based on the value and age of a vehicle. I believe this is a complete scam. Why should a vehicle's age/value have anything to do with what we pay in registration? I know that some other states have FLAT registration fees. But, in Arizona, it could cost well over $1,000 per year for a new vehicle. This is the one the reasons I continue to drive my old 20 year truck.
5. You may remember a few years ago we have a "Public Safety fee" added to our vehicle registration (AZ DOT related). In my case it was something like $99 extra. This applied to all vehicles - truck, motorcycles, etc.. It was eventually removed 3 years later because it was just an unlawful money grab by AZ DOT.

Here is some background on that 'public safety fee'...

https://www.azsenaterepublicans.gov/pos ... -still-pay

My main complaints about ADOT are with the crooked way our vehicle registration is set up, the endless highway construction projects, the cost overruns, the condition of the roads around here, and the public safety fees that were unlawfully added to vehicle registration. I assume the 'public safety fee' was related to ADOT and not DPS, but it would be easy to confuse the public safety fee with the DPS.

I don't have any specific complaints about DPS based on what I know about it. We definitely need police protection, emergency response, etc...

So here are my questions for you...

1. what are your comments on the taxes and fees we pay, specifically with regard to ADOT - vehicle registration based on a car's value, the so-called 'public safety fee', etc.? but feel free to comment on all our taxes in this incredibly bloated system we have here.
2. what are your comments on the management and costs of Tucson highway and road projects ? You have seen the roads here.
3. do you think these government agencies operate efficiently ?
4. do you think we're getting taxed / charged fairly ?

Mike_W wrote: ↑Oct 29 2025 11:40 amDPS typically refers to a Department of Public Safety, which is responsible for ensuring safety and security in a specific area, such as a university campus or a city. These departments often provide services like crime prevention, emergency response, and community safety education.

I really don't have a problem with DPS, as long as we're not getting taxed/billed for a lot of B.S. that we don't need.

So, you used an AI summary, which sounds to me like you actually didn't know what DPS was or did. I would have said DPS is basically the State Police or AZ Highway Patrol, since that is what I think of them being.

From the AZ DPS website About DPS:

In 1968, the Arizona Legislature passed a law to create the Arizona Department of Public Safety (AZDPS). The agency became operational by the executive order of Gov. Jack Williams on July 1, 1969. Governor Williams’ mandate consolidated the functions and responsibilities of the Arizona Highway Patrol, the Enforcement Division of the State Department of Liquor Licenses and Control and the Narcotics Division of the State Department of Law into one agency.

https://www.azdps.gov/department-information

Now, I don't know what the liquor control or narcotics control is, but they sound like state level alcohol and drug enforcement, like an AZ DEA or A part of the ATF. I actually know nothing about that arm of the agency and only really knew of them as the Highway Patrol.

Summarizing, in response to someone commenting that at one time there was, near your hike, a one time ADOT maintenance yard and DPS residence (something that was probably intended to have more officers dispersed over the state and faster response times for accidents), you wrote:

ADOT = AZ Dept of transportation , DPS = dept of public safety? We can all use a hell of a lot LESS govt, thats for sure!!

So, congratulations. You have come out in favor of defunding police. Logically, you likely want all toll roads. Mike is a liberal from 2020.

Well, except for toll roads, that is actually the strict libertarian view, since publicly supported roads in any capacity is equivalent to socialism. Pure, evil socialism.

Strangely, though, you hate toll roads, and for some reason call toll roads commie roads. That of course makes zero sense, because as someone who wants "LESS" government, you should advocate for nothing but toll roads. Glorious, private, "free market enterprise" highways to capitalistic libertarian perfection. Toll roads for your housing development, tolls for the interstates (which should all be turnpikes), tolls for the Catalina Highway. For that matter, you should be paying a private landowner to access their land, and not be doing anything on socialist federal lands. Tolls, everywhere. No more tax supported pork barrel roads overflowing with fraud, waste, abuse and whatever BS buzzwords you heard on Foxnews. No more of the evils of socialism for you, because you're not going to drive on socialist public roads, it's toll roads for Mike, all the time.

I'm sure nobody cares, but that's the beauty of public forums on the internet ... in my experience the inefficiency of road construction by ADOT (and you won't get me to argue that it's not terrible!) is still leaps and bounds better than their counterparts in other states. I believe the Kennedy in Chicago has been under construction since the before the Carter administration. Route 80 in Pennsylvania? Lol! Taxachusetts completed the Big Dig in 25 years, only 9 years longer than initially planned and at nearly $15 billion, more than twice the original estimate. I think California is currently working on putting some gazillion dollar train tracks on the ground?

Oh, it's definitely inconvenient when a freeway or exits are closed and it's pretty easy to bitch about it (and trust me I DO) but I'm also not going to pretend that I have any expertise in highway construction or engineering or all the things that go into road construction projects or an understanding of the complexities involved. But I have witnessed projects in Arizona that have been completed much more quickly with less disruption than some I've seen in other states, and for that I'm generally pleased.

If I had a complaint about the long overdue Marana area I-10 projects, it would mostly be that they were long over due. Same with the I-17 projects going up to Sunset point. The I-17 project seemed to be 20 years overdue, but is finally completed from what I have seen here.

Here is a link to a local report card. https://rtamobility.com/get-involved/ne ... mber-2025/

I deleted the rest in the interest of love and peace.

Here, enjoy this: Instead of my long 20 paragraph rant.

@Jim
might have been before you lived in Tucson. But, I'm 100% sure that BOTH Ina & Orange Grove entrance/exit ramps were both completely shut down for what felt like 2 years or more. The de-railed a lot of businesses in that area.

Found it - Feb 15, 2017

https://www.kold.com/story/34505206/eve ... d-closure/

and it didn't re-open until April 2019...

https://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/re ... k-closure/

The project you knew about happened later. We were all wondering why the same areas needed major construction TWICE within a 5 year period.

@Mike_W
They don't say Orange Grove was "shut down". In those articles, it only says :

The westbound I-10 off ramp to Orange Grove Road will close to traffic on Wednesday, Feb. 15. This will stay in place for approximately two years. Drivers can exit at Sunset Road and take the westbound frontage road to Orange Grove Road.

That explains why I remember the highway signs telling drivers to exit at Orange Grove for Ina Rd, when I visited Finger Rock TH and Madera Canyon in November 2018, during the project. It didn't affect east bound I-10 and the exit onto Orange Grove Rd, or the entrance ramps in either direction.

No mention is made of the west bound entrance on to I -10, which was moved on to the west bound frontage during the project per that first link. Presumably, it was left open since I expect they would have mentioned it.

Sunset was basically a dead exit after the 1983 bridge collapse until the Santa Cruz bridge was built and opened in 2017 https://pagregion.com/news/sunset-road- ... -underway/, so if you exit there it's another mile of frontage road to reach Orange Grove with little problem, and west bound drivers could access the Ina and Silverbell intersection easily over the river using Sunset, and that could be why they closed the west bound Orange Grove exit.

Possibly, because Orange Grove does not have any way to get to Silverbell over the river, and ADOT had to make detours easier for motorists unfamiliar with Pima County roads, they closed the west bound Orange Grove exit and had all west bound Ina detour traffic exit on west bound lanes at Sunset, with detour signs for west side Ina Rd traffic using Sunset Rd over the riverbed, from that point, and east bound Ina/ Orange Grove traffic continuing on to the frontage to Orange Grove Rd. Far from being shut down, even if mildly inconvenient for commuters used to exiting at orange Grove and dumping right on to the east bound road. Keep in mind that tourists might use Ina as an access road to Saguaro NP, since that is the easier way to access the pass out to the Avra Valley. Locals likely would have done that on their own, since Cortaro probably would be overloaded, if they all went there.

Once Ina Road closes, they'll rework the Interstate 10 frontage to get it ready for the full highway detour on Friday.

"People won't be bouncing around in their cars as they travel through it,"

Not sure if that was the frontage between Orange Grove and Ina. Probably was. I can find no mention for construction at the Orange Grove exit itself in those articles, and I don't remember there being any obvious signs of it over the last 4 years until Orange Grove was closed in early 2023.

The Orange Grove Interchange was still open otherwise, and the east bound exit was fully operational from what is in those articles. It is also what I recall from my time briefly passing through to Wrightson in late November 2018, and when I hiked Kimball in early November of 2018.

Also, I used to exit at sunset Rd just to get off I-10 when commuting 11 years ago, it was not a problem and caused no delays. It has been a 2-lane frontage road with no businesses since well before 2014. This is different from other areas of frontage which has businesses on it and complicates construction.

You might be angry that you're being inconvenienced, although I can't really see what you referenced here being all that bad as it pertained to Orange Grove. I found the increased traffic on the surface roads during the projects to be the bigger problem, but that is unavoidable. This is not any evidence of your claims. It is evidence that Arizona is really bad at keeping up with infrastructure projects needed to accommodate the development that happened. In some cases, like Ina Road, Sunset, and now Orange Grove, about 30 years overdue. Same most likely for the I -17 flex lanes, which probably were overdue by 2000, thanks to Phoenix exploding for 40 years prior.

The I -17 grade up to sunset point at least wasn't as bad (in my experience) as the stretch of I-10 in Pima County between I-19 and Tangerine, with focus on Ina, Cortaro, and Twin Peaks and their heavy traffic in combination with a level grade railroad crossing being particularly bad. Orange Grove at least had that railroad bridge over the road, but Ina should have been reworked before 2000. Arizona has a lot of grossly incompetent or just completely retard drivers and that area, the last straight section especially, is the only location I have ever seen rolled over vehicles on the side of the road. Probably it was idiots racing up to the top. So, maybe it was a tie if the two highways were competing for which was worse? Maybe we just need more DPS funding and presence, since people always speed up that section where trucks struggle to maintain the minimum speed of 40 MPH for interstate highways under normal conditions.

Mike, not liking something or being inconvenienced by a project is not some evidence of widespread waste, fraud and abuse, or that there was any waste or fraud at all. You're crying wolf and just complaining. If anything, it is evidence of limited government spending, when nothing happens for decades, well past when needed.

I would have liked it if the entire Sunset Road project from the Santa Cruz River Bridge to the River Road intersection, with a new Rillito Bridge, and I-10 interchange were completed before work started on the Orange Grove interchange reconstruction, but for some reason they chose to do both simultaneously. It would have been a lot better for drivers to be able to exit at Sunset, cross the railroad on a new overpass, continue on to a new Rillito bridge, and meet with River/Thornydale across from the County Park by the Sprouts. Ina Road would have had far less impact this way. Probably because as far as the distant office in Phoenix was concerned, no additional loss of east and west traveling interchanges was created by completing the work simultaneously, they do not care. This is also not an indication of a need for less government. It is an indication of the need for better government. You can more appropriately take that up with Pima County, than ADOT, and you can start by attending meetings in Pima County. Run for office if you want. Complaining endlessly and making baseless accusations online just makes you out to be a mindless CHUD.

However, with no understanding of the 2 projects funding, there could be additional budgetary reasons why they are doing both at once. I handled it by more or less no longer shopping at Sprouts on River Rd, and attempted to use Ina and Thornydale outside of busier times. Yes, businesses are impacted, as are all residents in these areas and all travelers. It wasn't two times in 5 years with serious affect, however. Anyone from Tucson who wanted to visit the Sprouts on River could exit at Sunset to reach it and enter I-10 east back at Orange Grove. No effect.

If it isn't being done already, I am sure you can take up the cause to demand that state tax money be used to compensate any businesses which lost revenue due to the project. No sane person would seriously suggest that the work never be completed. Arizona and NW Pima County have had far too much growth in the last 40 years to rely on long outdated and inadequate infrastructure.

You can always go back to Sahuarita. I liked it there. It was nice, quiet, and there was very little growth so far. I would greatly prefer that over living along the I-10 corridor again, other than probably wanting to hike Sombrero Peak all the time or visit places in the Front Range a dozen or so times a year. Madera Canyon would be super close, though.

@Jim
Yes, during that time I believe you could exit at Sunset and drive the frontage road to get to Orange Grove. But, there was no on-ramp at Orange Grove OR Ina during that 2 year period, so that meant if I needed to get on the highway, I needed to go to Cortaro and there were no other options. So, since the on-ramps were not available at Orange Grove and Ina, ALL of the traffic in the entire area needed to go to Cortaro. This created long backups and it was necessary to wait 3 or 4 traffic light cycles to get through. Furthermore, there's a train on Cortaro just East of the highway and that slowed things down even more. It was an absolute mess for at least 2 years. The highway was still 'open' during this construction period but my main complaint is they shut down 2 back-to-back on ramps for 2 years (Ina and Orange Grove) and that made driving around here HELL.

I don't know why you are defending ADOT so much, like you work there. You didn't comment at all on vehicle registration being based on the value of a vehicle, the scandal that was the so-called 'public safety fee', the incompetent bloated DMV, etc. The whole operation is just a big money grab for people who have money and can afford more expensive cars. The so-called public safety fee was charged to me 3 times - once for the truck, and again for each of the 2 motorcycles. It was a huge scam for a 3 year period and that's the reason the fee no longer exists, because someone called them out on it.

Here's another ongoing negative personal experience of mine involving ADOT. They apparently own some of the undeveloped land behind my house. Why the HOA isn't responsible for it, I don't know. Over the past 10 years I had a firepit back there with a bench and a few chairs. I wasn't bothering anyone and I actually took care of the land, as you know. I trimmed the dead limbs on the palo verde trees, burned debris, cleaned up trash many times, pulled weeds, planted some agave, aloe, birds of paradise, etc. and basically was like a caretaker for the land. A few times in the past 10 years I received hostile letters from ADOT telling me I was guilty of 'illegal dumping'. I never 'dumped' anything back there. I had a few piles of dead wood back there but most of it was against the wall. They also accused me of 'blocking the right of way' which is an absolute joke. The 1984 plot map called this area an 'alleyway' but I'm sure that nobody ever drove back there since the 1990's. Today, the area is thick with palo verde, and all kinds of cactus and other desert plants. There are no utilities back there and there is never any reason anyone would go back there except to enjoy the nature. It was always possible to walk trails back there.

By the way, ADOT NEVER maintained ANYTHING back there. All they did from my perspective was send letters and threaten to impose fines for dude poo mess reasons. They finally gave me permission to have a bench back there. I told them they should be the ones trimming the trees and hauling off the debris. They are lucky I do it myself. I don't like their arrogance. They tried to impose fines on me when I cut off and burn the dead brush, and maintain the land like it is my own, while they do NOTHING back there except try to impose restrictions and fines. So, that is the OTHER complaint I have with ADOT.

Of course there are local politicians to blame for waste, fraud, and abuse.... Here's a PRIME EXAMPLE.

Arizona county treasurer pleads guilty to embezzling more than $38 million for personal expenses

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/24/us/arizo ... ezzlement/

For years, I heard all about the failed Rio Nuevo project on local talk radio. I lived here in Tucson during that time.

https://www.kold.com/story/14411810/az- ... o-records/

and...

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/201 ... continues/

Sometimes real estate developers are to blame. Here's a prime example of waste, fraud, and abuse.

https://www.kvoa.com/news/n4t-investiga ... 1a129.html

So Tucson is FULL of cases of embezzlement, waste, fraud and abuse and it's coming from all directions. It looks like the local politicians are primarily to blame, rather than ADOT. Agree?

But, I still hate how ADOT charges a registration fee based on your vehicle's VALUE, and also unlawfully charged us all a 'public safety fee' which did nothing for public safety. I still hate how ADOT tries to impose fines and restrictions on land behind my house when they DO NOTHING to maintain that land while I've been a caretaker of that land for YEARS. Those are my main complaints with ADOT. And, I really don't have any complaints about DPS. But, in general terms, I would like to see limits on government. There's no reason why 1 out of 6 jobs in America should be a gov't job PERIOD.

Just to be clear. I wrote...

'ADOT = AZ Dept of transportation , DPS = dept of public safety? We can all use a hell of a lot LESS govt, thats for sure!!'

in reply to....

'At one time ADOT yard and DPS residence nearby.'

which was a comment made by @Nighthiker on my trip report for 'Timber Camp Mountain 6527'.

I did not intent for this to spiral into a huge political discussion and I still don't know why it did...

@Nighthiker - do you have any more information on what specifically was there at Timber Camp Mountain? Was it just a storage facility for ADOT? Regarding DPS, what do you mean by DPS residence? Does this refer to some kind of administrative office or living quarters for workers? I don't quite understand SPECIFICALLY what was there. Police/military training, road construction workers, etc.? There's about 100 different possibilities I can think of.

Jim wrote --- 'So, congratulations. You have come out in favor of defunding police. Logically, you likely want all toll roads. Mike is a liberal from 2020.'

** Just to be clear, I'm definitely NOT in favor of defunding police. I'm not in favor of 'resisting smokey bear' either, whatever the EFF that even means. I have no problem with DPS other than any waste, fraud, and abuse that MAY exist. I have a number of complaints with ADOT which is outlined in my previous response. Perhaps there is a reason why the ADOT yard and DPS residence is no longer there. Perhaps it WAS wasteful spending and unnecessary. Just because I want to see less gov't infrastructure does not mean I want to defund police. And by the way, do we really need a huge police force in Tonto National Forest, about 35 miles North of Globe (a small town), in an unpopulated area? I'm all for having police in the city where they are needed most. This place was by no means a city and not anywhere NEAR a city. So the main question is what staff was there, what was the facility responsible for, and why was it shut down. These all are questions that are important for this discussion.

In general, I'm disgusted by the waste, fraud, and abuse by local politicians and any other government offices, local or otherwise. I am in favor of minimizing the amount of land and infrastructure used by gov't agencies, especially in National Forests, and rural areas. And Jim knows I'm definitely not a liberal. I proudly voted for Trump 3 times. This Country is finally moving in a better direction now.

Mike_W wrote: ↑Oct 31 2025 11:56 am I did not intent for this to spiral into a huge political discussion and I still don't know why it did...

Oh, it's a mystery. Truly, a mystery.

Sahuarita full. Go away.

[ youtube video ]
always say, "nay" to the free service of the fire department.

Mike, Nighthiker might be ignoring you or he might not have seen this forum since he left a comment yesterday.

ADOT yards are their maintenance yards for things like road repair equipment, snowplows and dump trucks, loaders used to clear rocks off highways, and so forth. The DPS residences were the housing provided to officers to have faster response times during off patrol hour emergencies, or their housing for remote duty stations. I think the state stopped all together or closed many due to their poor condition. I believe this mostly happened around the 2008 collapse. They had these residences in rural areas where housing was not otherwise available.

I don't know what happened since, but when I lived in Kayenta from 2011 to 2012, DPS didn't seem to patrol or work before 8 am or after some time like 7 or 8 pm. They probably had guys on call for big accidents at 2 am. Otherwise, you had pretty much no police presence in NE Arizona, at all. Navajo Nation Tribal Police (NNPD) ran 3 officers for at least the overnight shift for a huge geographic area. Same more or less occurs in part of Gila County between Globe and Show Low, or Globe and Payson. So, you hit an elk and wreck, they might be able to receive a 911 call and respond faster than if they have to travel 50 or 60 miles to get there. Obviously, the benefit of that depends on the severity of the wreck, but they probably call for an air rescue helicopter at the scene. In part, that is because Kayenta Health Center or Cobre Valley Hospital are not going to be the closest most appropriate facility in a severe trauma.

Globe PD does not respond to a call in the county, that is the sheriff, but NNPD could, I think. I'm just using these places as examples. Gila county, having about 53,000 people likely has few deputies, and they might not have more than 2 or 3 on duty overnight, as well. Next time you talk to James, ask him about long responses and the Pima County Sherriff. He has a relative who is or was a deputy.

@Jim
just remember - nothing is ever free, someone has to pay for it.

@Jim
Good to know. Just wanted to know your thoughts on....

1. ADOT imposing registration fees based on a car's value - you would pay nearly $1,000 in registration fees PER YEAR on a $50 K MSRP new car. Most decent cars new will cost that these days...
2. ADOT charging the 'public safety fee' which had nothing to do with safety, was unlawful, canceled in 2021, and just a money grab in my opinion
3. 1 out of 6 jobs in America being a govt job (Fed, State or local)
4. The massive waste, fraud, and abuse in govt that was found so far by DOGE, and we're told this is just the tip of the iceberg
5. The over $38 TRILLION in US National Debt , and how it's ever going to be paid down
6. if it's OK to make sensible cuts to ADOT, DPS, etc. even though they are 'necessary' and 'critical' departments of gov't, especially if there is any waste, fraud, and abuse.

US Debt Clock...

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

I'm not anti-govt, I'm just a big believer in accountability, sensible spending, and the elimination of waste, fraud, and abuse which we know there are MASSIVE amounts of. As we found out earlier this year through DOGE, there was $2.7 TRILLION of waste, fraud, and abuse with USAID over the past 2 decades.

https://citizenportal.ai/articles/24021 ... for-reform

We also just found out there was a $50 BILLION increase in food stamps given to illegal aliens in a single year alone. Over a 10 year period, that's half a TRILLION dollars in waste, fraud & abuse going to illegal aliens...

https://www.uspresidentialelectionnews. ... sands-off/

Today we have anarchist groups basically assaulting ICE officers when they are just following the law. We have the worst kind of SCUM on the internet twisting law and order and calling half the Country NAZI's. There are these stupid 'No Kings' rallies full of freaks who don't realize that there was a legitimate election in 2024 in which Trump won the popular vote and the electoral college vote. If Trump really was a king he would lock up anyone who publicly voiced opposition to him, but it hasn't happened once because we still live in America, and the constitution allows them to go into a public rage. Food stamps are supposed to be used by ONLY legal US citizens and legal residents who are in need. Anyone collecting who should not be is taking away from citizens and veterans who need it, and therefore, they should be rounded up and deported so that this Country does not fail financially.