HikeArizona.COM

Apache - Sitgreaves is CLOSED

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/asnf/
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Coronado is CLOSED

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coronado/
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Coconino is CLOSED

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coconino/
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Kaibab is mostly closed

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/kai/
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Tonto is CLOSED

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/
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Grand Canyon - is OPEN

http://www.nps.gov/grca/index.htm

I agree it's for the best. I too hate rules being placed because others cannot act responsibly, kind of reminds me of the whole class staying after school as a child because a few misbehaved. But the alternative is frightening. We need to do what we need to do to protect our wilderness. I had been looking forward to meeting other HAZ members at West Fork. Maybe South Mtn. doesn't look so bad after all.

I appologize to all the HAZ members in advance (particularly Snick - sorry dude) - but I just can't resist.

chihiggs wrote: See, we give up a little piece of freedom today in the name of protection from something that may happen....Instead, people need to be educated to care for themselves and those around us. Few things beat experience for education.

If we keep giving up inches to the morons--who's the real moron?

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That is about the same as saying we don't need cops to enforce the speed limit or to arrest drunk drivers. Hell, we educate everyone on how to drive - they even make us take a test - but yet we still have accidents. I don't know anyone who doesn't know that driving drunk is about the dumbest thing you can ever do - and somehow there are still tons of DUI arrests (and deaths) every day. But hey, my tax dollars pay for those roads, therefore they are my roads. I should be able to drive just as fast as I damn well please...I'm skilled and the rules don't apply to me.

Please.

Of course we need protection from morons (knuckle-dragging morons if I'm not mistaken...). Simply because there ARE morons. No amount of education will prevent a moron from thinking "Well, that fire is in a ring, and I just don't have the time to put it out..." or better yet "This here cigarette butt won't do any damage..."

The protection is just as necessary for our National Forest as it is for our roads. There are just as many dangers, and just as many morons, and the danger for massive destruction is even greater in a National Forest - just look at all the displaced people form the various forrest fires this year.

I do wish people would realize that we don't live in a perfect world, and that a certain amount of regulation is required. Not everyone has the regard for safety and conservation that you or I may have. And no amount of education will change their minds.

Sort of like this post - it isn't going to change the mind of anyone who disagrees with me. Oh, well.....

desert dweller wrote:

Paintninaz wrote: For those not familiar with the southern part of the state, here is some information.

Peaks are as high as 10,700 ft (Mt. Gragham in the Pinaleno Mtns near Safford.
John

Mount Graham has been off limits to hikers and backpackers for a long time now. Most of the usable areas up on top of the Pinalenos are off limits because of a deal struck over the Telescopes and the Red squirrel. It is a closure put into law by congress. You may not go above 9800' between Heliograph and Webb Peak. You may go to the top of those two though. That takes away most of the mountain top save the steep slopes.

Snick, Cihiggs has as much right to free speech as you do. That is a right we still have. I've noticed you excercise your free speech as much as you like. Let him have his say. No need to argue if your views are different. Just state your views and we'll all get the point. You can still have fun if you choose. No one is taking the potential for that away from you.

I happen to agree with him. It is in context here to discuss it in a gentle manner as long as you don't personally attack each other. I don't like losing my freedoms. Don't be afraid to question these things.

I also happen to agree with the closures in this case. The protection of the outdoors is a prime concern. There are a lot of morons who will burn it down and not get caught.

This is a simple damned if you do damned if you don't. There is no perfect answer.

It is a true disaster right now.

Apache - Sitgreaves NF anounced closures earlier today. I'm not sure where though, their site doesn't have a current news release. (yet)

I feel a need to move on . . . . .

There are no closures at this time on the North Rim or N. Kaibab NF.

I know the FS release indicates a campfire ban at Apache-Sitgreaves, but I haven't seen anything today (just now) on camping restrictions or closures. Just curious - I reserved a family site today at Spillway in Woods Creek for this weekend (camping in comfort, I guess); do the reservation agencies give full refunds if there is a closure?

As for the rest of the threads, just as the price of freedom requires tolerance of morons, so I would think this web site should allow for freedom of expression. At least the topic is appropriate. Thanks, Joe.

Think positively - we'll have rain before you know it!

I wasn't squashing anyones right to free speech, I was simply suggesting that their might be a better forum for political views than a site called "Hiking Arizona".

As I said before, I'll move on . . . . .

Well, well--

I guess I am surprised. I have reread my post several times. I see one question and one statement.

1. Where is our outrage at our National Forests being closed?
2. Free living Americans needs to responsible for their actions.

Instead I am being told I can only discuss hiking here. I thought I was discussing hiking, and my frustration of not being allowed to use our forests(with rules, I still don't see where I said do away with all rules and do as one pleases with the land just because it's ours). But that's OK--we are in a forum--a place for an open exchange of ideas. Not to mention after looking through other posts on forums I find plenty on computers and digital cameras, just to name a few.

And thanks for making my arguement clearer with the drunk driving analogy. But if that arguement is to be analogous; wouldn't one have to remove the driving privileges of all because of the drunks that still kill others? I mean recheck my post for yourselves. I see where I've acknowledged the difficulty of the Forest Ranger's job and advocated them enforcing existing rules as opposed to closing the NF's to EVERYONE.

Obviously many of you do not like my stance of feeling people should be responsible for themselves. I understand that 100% will NEVER be a realistic figure for responsible individuals however we all still drive.....

Boy one guy gives his opinion and he is told his comments are dumb and told to take it elsewhere.

Chihiggs, I agree with you in a sense. It disappoints me to no end that the people that love the outdoors the most are sort of "punished" for those of the idiotic nature. I don't think you were out of line nor do I think this is not the place to vent your anger about the closures that do in fact have everything to do with what we are all in this forum for...the outdoors!

I guess I try to think positive about this, the chances of a fire being started and destroying what nature we do have left is inevitable if the forests were kept open. You are correct in the fact that we give up an inch of freedom, it will continue until we don't even realize what happened. I don't think I should be told where I can hike and where I can't hike, but I also like the protection it gives to our beautiful forests. I guess it's a lose-lose situation. Anyway, I have ranted long enough. :roll:

Feel free to discuss anything you want. My rose colored glasses slipped down my nose for a few hours yesterday. My anger with the few, the pimpled, and the stupid who set forest fires blew a fuse in my ancient brain. I've gone from a 15 amp to a 20 amp and everthing should be OK.

Friends?

After all that, whew, I agree. Our true common anger here is and should be, directed at the careless few "knuckle dragging morons" that mess things up for us all.

Snick33-- your statement is huge and I respect it.

Sincerely, Mike Higgins

Now can we do anything as a group to help? Free backcountry edict classes?? It should be obvious I know nothing about certification for this or liabilities--but am willing to help. And an idea always starts somewhere.....

Snick33 wrote:Feel free to discuss anything you want. My rose colored glasses slipped down my nose for a few hours yesterday. My anger with the few, the pimpled, and the stupid who set forest fires blew a fuse in my ancient brain. I've gone from a 15 amp to a 20 amp and everthing should be OK.

Man, I'm trying real hard not to get into the political discussion going on here. But, it looks like I am going to say something anyway.

After twenty-five years of livng in and backpacking southern Arizona, I have come to the conclusion that the majority of forest fires are not set by the "the few, the pimple and the stupid". Most fires I have read about and smoldering fireplaces I have come across were started by the ignorant and the arrogant. Scout Leaders, Illegal Entrants, city campers, ranch hands and non-responsible smokers are the most common culprits.

As much as we want to believe, the practice of LNT (Leave No Trace-A set of guidelines used by experienced and aware campers and hikers) is not universal. I have come across Scout Troops that will still use sapplings and branches from live trees to practice making lean-tos. The recent rash of wild fires in Cohise county have been started by Illegals trying to keep warm at night as they make their way north. Do you think folks from Central and South America even know about LNT or fire safety.

Because every year thousands of acres are burned, the Forest Service, Park Service and State Land managers have recognized the trend and determined, that for just a few months a year, fire-prone areas need to be protected. I'm all for it.

Sorry to rant. These opinions are my own. They are not meant to insult or demean anyone.

desert dweller

Just settle down+keep those tail feathers from gettin'all ruffled up! I'm one of the Monkey Wrench Gang kids who still want to lose Glen Canyon Dam. It's always the many who must suffer for the folly of the few,unaware,uncaring,ignorant(knuckle draggers) or simply malicious jerks out there. We'll just have to hang in,trust the powers that be, and truly hope+pray for rain so that all our wild places + creatures can survive. Please O Ancient Ones+ Gods above, give us rain(+hope)!

GeorgAz@aol.com wrote:JIt's always the many who must suffer for the folly of the few,unaware,uncaring,ignorant(knuckle draggers) or simply malicious jerks out there.

Can we call them "mouth-breathers" also...I like that one.

Hey...National Trails Day is coming up fast....does anybody have plans?

Hmmm....

Im not so sure that the government closing the forests due to extremely dry conditions as a precaution against the knuckle-dragging mouth breathers is such a bad idea... I bet we would gladly trade a few weeks of restriction, have a nice monsoon, and we all get back to normal in place of smoke filled skies, then decades to replenish what was lost due to carelessness....

If we all love the outdoors like we say we do, we would easily see both sides of this situation.

ok... Im ready for my beating now...

Try a quick blow 40 amp, Snick, they always work for me. Gee this raised more hackles than a debate on power tool preferences on the woodworking forum where I also hang my hat from time to time.

I'll do my two cents worth by promising to shoot anyone careless with fire with one of my large caliber firearms. As the human body is over 70% water, the added moisture should help a bit.

Having worked both with and for various "gummints" for over 30 years, I've noted that they have the ability to anger most of the people all of the time. They also are more impressed with the power of their individual missions than with freedom as an absolute. Lest anyone think I'm a raging liberal, I'm also a Life NRA member who sends Charleton Heston a check every time I buy a new gun (which is often).

Those who administer our forests can certainly anger me. When they allow grazing leases to overgraze and overpoop our riparian habitats, but don't allow grazing leases to be issued to those high bidders who only wish to allow the land to heal; it angers me. When they allow a Canadian mining company to use millions of gallons of water to blast cheap copper ore just east of Haunted Canyon in the Superstitions (which may dry up the springs around Rogers Trough) instead of buying cheap copper from Chile and raping THEIR land; but still have the gaul to allow some Rangerette to quiz me about where I'm going at Peralta, that angers me too. Nonetheless, I prefer their stewardship to that of the State Land Department's approach which can be seen as you turn off Highway 60 to the Peralta Trailhead.

I am so grateful to live in a state with over 80% public lands. I grew up in Indiana, where the nearest public wild place was a full day's drive away in the uppper peninsula of Michigan. If one wanted to hike, hnt, fish or breath anywhere else you had to get the landowner's permission. I prefer to live in this great playground, even if they shut off the rides once in a while.

Let's all take a deep breath, pray for rain, and dust off our California and Colordo maps while we wait.

-Randy
Shalako (the Zuni bringer of rain avatar) Anciano

Well, I must say - I am reminded why most of the time I ought to keep my big mouth shut.

A good friend, and one who I consider my mentor in many respects, once said that to him it is a joy to be found wrong. I thought he was nuts. But then he told me why: being wrong is an opportunity to learn. That has been a philosophy that I have tried to adopt in my life. Not terribly successfully all the time - but I try.

Chihiggs - I didn't mean to jump all over you like I did - but your posting touched a nerve in me. Generally, I support your viewpoint of giving up freedoms for no good reason. But there are certain aspects of governmental control of which I approve - if only for short periods of time (like shutting down a NF for safety reasons).

"Stupidest thing I ever heard" is a bit extreme and was uncalled for. I appreciate the moderation given by others since my post. Props especially to Snick.

Now, I'll just step down off my soap-box and crawl back under the rock I came out from under and try not to be so damned self righteous next time.....

Yes there's always two schools of thought+neither very good! Anyway,who was John Galt!

We have a really super bunch here. I know that we are all anxious with the lack of rain and all the sudden closures right when we were all getting ready for some big adventures. This can cause us outdoor junkies to get a little testy. I appreciate the effort put forth by the whole HAZ team here. Very impressive. I am going to enjoy being on this forum with all of you a little more after this thread. I already enjoyed it very much. There are a lot of high quality folks here. I really like all the diverss personalities. It makes the world spin a little zestier.

Take care everyone and I hope you find some good adventure out of this somehow.